One of the most prominent players to be banned is Kaeko, and went into a very long discourse in the last post on this blog:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/35559.html
(That read will take a while. I'll wait.)
Anyhow, understand that I condemn Kaeko's actions and I don't think Kaeko has anything to say on it, but I'll respond to it, because I think it, like the first post of mine today, brings up some prescient points (and answers some questions that earlier comments of mine asked):
Whose "fault" is it?
To me, the rules make that an irrelevant question.
Since the rules prohibit a player from exploiting a known "bug" to gain an unfair game advantage, that such a "bug" exists does not give the player free reign to exploit it. Therefore, Kaeko, the blame lies entirely on the player, especially when the "bug" has been known and flagrantly abused by the community for 18 months.
So, Kaeko, though you are correct, it is not said strongly enough.
Was everyone guilty punished?
Addressed previously. Absolutely not. I don't think they're done, especially with the number, caliber, prestige, and levels of players impacted. Expect a second round real damn soon now.
Were punishments given fairly? Were the punishments too severe?
No. In fact, the more I read, the more I think all players involved should've been permabanned, not only as a retaliatory action to keep the players in line, but a further retailatory action once it became clear that the player-base came down soundly against Square-Enix.
I think some players got off lightly.
Again, see the comment about fraud on the last post. The players committed an RMT-like fraud experience against Square-Enix -- they should be lucky they aren't being hauled off to court. Any of these people who is allowed to play again should thank their lucky stars that someone at Square-Enix dropped the ball, and be prepared to be heaped with more scorn (from all side) than I am.
But Kaeko does make a point: There is no real standard as to what is a bannable illegality and what is not. Windower, used by quite a bulk of the upper-level player-base, is a prime example often given.
If I were Square-Enix, there'd have been an announcement on that Tuesday when Windower and the Wings of the Goddess stuff was available: Windower has been bannable, and we've let it slide too long. It stops, or you stop. At _maximum_, Windower would've been bannable upon the release of legal Windowed Mode.
Square-Enix needs to enforce the rules, and be clear as to what gets what penalty. Be lucky I don't run FFXI, though. :)
They need to ban Windower and make it a bannable offense. The information it apparently gives can give a significant advantage that the game owners never intended (otherwise, it'd have been put in Windowed Mode). It's third-party software -- treat it's users like it is.
The problem with that is simple: I've heard estimates of half the players in the game using it.
And that's what gets me? Does no one in the game abide by the Terms of Service?
If so, you already have my answer. Shut it down.
Kaeko is correct: It is all about not getting caught. Los Guerreros again: "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying." I mean, the TOS is the only thing which keeps order in the game. I mean, if we allow this duping and the like, why not allow RMT (as two examples of how the TOS keep order)?
Do they even need a reason to ban you?
No. Read this section of Kaeko's post again, it makes two things clear:
1) They can toss you for no reason at all. They could toss me tomorrow because they get too many people complaining to them about this blog, really -- should they elect to do so.
2) The very fact you have a character does not make it yours. It is, as everything on it, a proprietary virtual product owned by Square-Enix. Read that section of my last post again to see the ramifications of that.
What constitutes an exploit?
From the Playonline Q&A, which he quotes later:
"[Game Exploits]
Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play may have their account suspended and all items or experience obtained through those actions confiscated."
This means any action taken to exploit an in-game mechanic not in the manner intended is an exploit, and suspendable or bannable.
I think we now have our answer on Logging Hate, and Apathy better watch it's back. What Apathy did to defeat Pandemonium Warden is, at least, suspendable, if not bannable. "Logging Hate", by this definition, is not an illegitimate strategy, but an illegal exploit of Pandemonium Warden's code and the effects of logging out.
(Oh, that'll get the hate mail.)
So the answer to the question is "yes".
And he lists 25 other things (including Kraken-Dark-Zerg) which also could. I would take some issue with the including of Kraken-Dark-Zerg, because that's only a strategy which Square-Enix did not intend used -- it didn't actually use something which was not part of the game. Illegitimate, not illegal.
He actually goes through some of these, but let's take a look at the list as a whole:
- Using Windower period
- Using Windower plugins like Distance and TPParty
- Using "fillmode"
Third-party software. Should be bannable.
- Tricking KB via Kite Route into repeatedly eating Blizzard IVs, an 8 second cast spell (Apollyon NW Solo)
- Deaggroing LBC repeatedly by using a kite path based on tight turns during Bhaflau Remnants Solo
- Tricking Qiqirn Treasure Hunter 3F Arrapago Remnants into alternate kite path
It depends on whether that exploits a flaw in the code or whether it's just simply something the players have figured out. The former would be, the latter would probably not. This gets to Square-Enix' intent on all this.
- Using the "Warp" or "D/C" trick to get into Salvage Solo
Yes. Bannable.
- Trick Qiqirn Astrolger 2F Arrapagon Remnants into not Warping "as intended"
If he's supposed to warp and you use a mechanic in a way not intended, but only to stop him from warping, yes.
- Log off trick to spawn Poroggo Madame 1F Zhayolm Remnants
Notice a pattern? Anything using logging off or disconnecting, not to leave the game but to gain an unfair game advantage, would fall under this situation. Bannable.
- Poroggo NM Frog Song Charm trick
- Medusa "Tidal Gate" bypass trick (the wall has a gaping hole in it)
- Goblin Footprint
Unclear as to what these are.
- Using the "Wall of Justice" (AV Kill Method 1)
Addressed it later. One LS was already jailed for using that mid-fight. It's quite bannable.
- Holding AV and killing it's Wynavs until AV was glitched into doing nothing (AV Kill Method 2)
Bannable, on at least two different levels.
- Using 13 Dark Knights to Souleater gank AV (AV Kill Method 3)
Not unless you want to get to the point where the only legal play is Square-Enix' play -- this is different because it is another method used _within the scope of play_ (at least from all I've learned of it) and doesn't involve mechanisms not intended for use in that way.
- Logging out after sleeping a train to reset hate list (same as recent PW kill, but a more "Average-Joe" use)
See above. PW's defeaters were illegal. Bannable.
- The ??? Pop NM Claim Bug
If it's a bug, it's an exploit. Bannable.
- Dia'ing the Vanguard Eye in Dynamis-Glacier from the bottom of the cliff to back-train Hydras
- Nuking Time Statues in Dynamis-Glacier from cliffs
- Dynamis Windurst "falling off the bridge"
Here, the argument is using the following (as he discusses later) -- POL Q&A again:
"Q: What constitutes taking advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play?
A: Some examples would be: using the games' geometry to safely attack a monster without fear of being attacked,"
Note that this is somewhat different than kiting a monster (you can still be attacked for a while), and it could be argued that a person using the "high ground" to ranged attack could even be in violation. The rule actually would appear, in this case, to demand that the monster have the ability to attack you if other factors didn't apply like Sleep or such.
- Using LVL1 mules to cheese Moblin Maze Mongers for Mables
Not clear. It doesn't break a game mechanic in a way not intended, it would appear at first. In fact, they openly said that MMM was going to be one of those ways low-levelled players could get involved in the game.
- Sleepga mob dispersion trick (forces reposition of mobs - honestly don't know a real name for this)
I could see an argument that that would be an exploit.
- Offering to sell spare Homam drops for gil
Hmmm... Rare/Ex??
- Giving Ashira my account info to log me in due to server congestion oddities
Addressed as well. Any third-party use of an account is illegal. It is a bannable offense to use another person's account, or for another person's account to be used. That's one of the reasons you are seeing accounts banned as compromised.
- Selectively disbanding alliances and parties to make copies of items in certain instanced zones
How we got here in the first place...
The real question is: Can the rules be enforced, or have the cheaters won and the game has become, as I say in my label "unsalvageable"?
But what Kaeko says in the key: EVERYTHING is Square-Enix' call. They could technically, as discussed, make kiting or NIN tanking illegal tomorrow if they really wanted to and never intended for combat to be performed that way.
At the end of the day, it's not an "error in judgement", it's an invalidation of your entire work on FFXI and should be condemned, though. Basically, since Square-Enix owns your character, they can, for all intent and purpose, control how it is used -- you only rent it.
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6 comments:
You are right, yet you are wrong. The bottom line with salvage is 95% of the people that go to salvage cheat in some way, shape or form. Ever heard of .dat mods? People that go to salvage on a regular basis actually rename mobs that drop cells, so those are the only ones that are killed. Does SE do anything about it? no, and yes, they know, its been reported countless times, and is widely documented in people's livejournal's (http://kerberoz.livejournal.com/42314.html). Things like this make the very nature of the bannings unfair - why ban some, yet not others?
I don't think the message that is being sent to SE is "don't ban them", its "do it fairly". Yes, SE knew about the bug for 2 years - I know, since I reported it twice 2 years ago. Since representatives of their company informed me the game was "working as intended", then ban people when it becomes widespread, that is a failure of customer service at the very least.
They need to shut Salvage down. I think that's the point -- and the second point is that some eyes definitely got slammed open at Square-Enix as to the amount of cheating -- and FLAGRANT cheating at that -- polluting Final Fantasy XI.
I think this was a wake-up call for Square-Enix, and, as I asserted in another post, DJ Plaeskool was right in calling it retaliation, in saying "we're the boss, not you". I ask you: Who runs this game: Square-Enix, or the high-level cheating players? Given what you say, I don't think that answer is a given.
I think they have to ban them all, but the problem there is: Especially if it comes down that _that much_ cheating is going on, can Final Fantasy XI continue, financially or in any other way? Is there so much cheating going on that the game has to be over?
Let me ask you: Out of 100 players, how many should be looking over their shoulders right now? 50? 80?? 95???
I think SE's TOS and what they actually are willing to really enforce are two different things. They know that most people who aren't on PS2/360 are using Windower. But that in and of itself isn't really much of an advantage. (Many of the plugins are though, certainly.)
So, they stick to mostly stuff that adversely affects other players (RMT fucktards in Sky cockblocking Byakko 24/7, camping other NMs 24/7, and whatnot). And blatant script kiddie type "hacking." Whether it's some douche using FFXIapp to POS hack all over or somebody exploiting Salvage glitches. That stuff is readily apparent server side and pisses SE off.
As for the "it's been here for 18 months!!!" thing, I think that ties in as well. Sure, it was apparently in game for 18 months. And people exploiting it are supposed to be banned according to the TOS. But it's less a problem if fewer people are doing it. If Sky was only fucked on two or three servers, can you say you think SE would have created the STFU to deal with it? Would they have changed how Ullikummi and Despot spawn? I'm not so sure.
So, while I would not object to people breaking the TOS to be suspended or banned, I don't think purely enforcing the TOS is what SE is interested in doing.
Something you need to understand is that there exists a delicate balance the SE has to keep.
On the one end you have ethos and on the other economic.
Bottom line, at the end of the day, FFXI needs to make money. If this were WoW, subscriber rates wouldn't be a problem. However, with a already limited preexisting audience of 500,000 players. The current count of Windower download is 251,610. We can safely assume that at least some of these are multiple downloads from one user. So, lets be safe and bump that figure down by...100,000. That's still 150,000 that will get the banhammer for Windower. That's a little more then 1/5'th of the total audience.
FFXI would be dead.
Which, from you blog it doesn't sound like you are terribly opposed to, and I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just pointing out that Square-Enix has no desire to see the game fall because at the end of the day it makes them money.
Also, closing Salvage is ludicrous. Why punish someone like me who is only 5/15 on Ares set, casually does Salvage, enjoys it immensely and has never cheated?
Plus...they fixed the problem.
Evilpaul:
I think SE's TOS and what they actually are willing to really enforce are two different things. They know that most people who aren't on PS2/360 are using Windower. But that in and of itself isn't really much of an advantage. (Many of the plugins are though, certainly.)
The problem there is simple: You run into a very real legal question when you start saying "We'll enforce this, but not these, violations."
Especially when you start getting to the point that you basically have to wipe out much of current end-game. It's kind of like copyright -- you can lose, in essence, the rights to control your copyrighted material if you basically don't enforce them until some "line is crossed".
So, they stick to mostly stuff that adversely affects other players (RMT fucktards in Sky cockblocking Byakko 24/7, camping other NMs 24/7, and whatnot). And blatant script kiddie type "hacking." Whether it's some douche using FFXIapp to POS hack all over or somebody exploiting Salvage glitches. That stuff is readily apparent server side and pisses SE off.
This incident (and most of the others listed that I referred to as bannable) are no real different. They basically use exploits to gain items and prestige in an unfair advantage the game never intended. Again, every item in this game is a piece of proprietary virtual property, at the absolute control of Square-Enix. The players, for 18 months, have tried to wrest that control in this specific way.
To that end:
As for the "it's been here for 18 months!!!" thing, I think that ties in as well. Sure, it was apparently in game for 18 months. And people exploiting it are supposed to be banned according to the TOS. But it's less a problem if fewer people are doing it. If Sky was only fucked on two or three servers, can you say you think SE would have created the STFU to deal with it? Would they have changed how Ullikummi and Despot spawn? I'm not so sure.
Yes, because of the plausibility that there would be no one left on those servers, or (the other way around) that those who were polluting the two or three servers would radiate outward to the rest. So I do think they would step in early (and, for RMT, you are definitely seeing that in progress here).
Nathan:
Your "ethos vs. economy" thing is a very good point, but there are a couple problems...
1) I've already seen games basically be discredited to the point that they are basically discarded as things of the past. I used to see tons of people (and used to be one) who played Magic: The Gathering years ago. But, as it began to come out that players cheated their asses off without real ramification in the top levels of the game, people began to leave. Now, you can't barely find more than a couple tables worth unless at a dedicated Magic event.
Why? Because the people running the game at the highest levels didn't go Draconian on the cheaters and run them off. All they cared about were people buying their cards. They didn't give too damns about fair play or equitable play. As long as the cards kept moving.
I think we are getting to that point in FFXI, where you have to cheat to be successful (at least in certain game-demimondes). This is perhaps the most damning message, if you're Square-Enix, of these bannings: To be successful in FFXI, you probably almost have to cheat and break the Terms of Service. Hence, there is no more balance between RL economy and ethos. The game has been irreparably smashed at that point, if Square-Enix has to draw that conclusion.
This is why I question FFXI's future unless the cheaters are utterly smashed. You will not get new players in that kind of an environment. Is it no secret that the bulk of the new player advertisements are in Japan?
2) If FFXI were dead the moment they enforced Windower, then FFXI needs to die anyway. Part of this is due to the stuff I said in #1 above (that you now have to cheat to "win"), and the rest is the simple fact that the rules become legally unenforceable, much as what you see when copyright goes unenforced until they decide to start to enforce it. Some judge would up and say "no, you can't do that because you let this go for too long".
If we're that far down the road (and there's no reason to believe we aren't), we're screwed. Why would Square-Enix *want* to continue to work for a player-base which so openly spits in its face? And why would anyone new *want* to play such a crooked game?? Because then you get to the questions of the ethos of Square-Enix, and I don't think the Japanese in that company would look too kindly on just continuing a sham game to make money. If Square-Enix were purely an American company -- sure. But it's not.
Real questions, Nathan.
Also, closing Salvage is ludicrous. Why punish someone like me who is only 5/15 on Ares set, casually does Salvage, enjoys it immensely and has never cheated?
Plus...they fixed the problem.
Two comments, neither of which you will like:
1) I answered your first question already. The odds of you having "never cheated" at Salvage are exceedingly low. The very fact you've played Salvage at all has made you under suspicion -- that's the point I'm trying to make. The game balance has been destroyed, and I'm not sure, especially with the second point I bring up, it can ever be reinstituted.
2) I'll let FFXIlover state it him or herself, in the first comment to this post, above:
You are right, yet you are wrong. The bottom line with salvage is 95% of the people that go to salvage cheat in some way, shape or form. Ever heard of .dat mods? People that go to salvage on a regular basis actually rename mobs that drop cells, so those are the only ones that are killed. Does SE do anything about it? no, and yes, they know, its been reported countless times, and is widely documented in people's livejournal's (http://kerberoz.livejournal.com/42314.html).
a) They've fixed _one_ cheat.
b) This would actually appear to be openly hacking the game -- you tell me about Salvage being savable.
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