In light of the actions of the Special Task Force and other disciplinary entities in the last two weeks, I can only say that I have been encouraged that steps may finally be taken to curtail high-end player abuse of the game...
... that is, until I found the official POL website last night, and the most recent article thereon.
(As of about 5:30 PM PST on February 5, it still is the most recent story -- a link to the Allakazham article on the defeat of Pandemonium Warden by the Apathy linkshell on Remora.)
I am calling for an investigation of this "victory" as a matter of misconduct by the Special Task Force. I believe the Apathy linkshell (those members who took part in this fight) should be penalized under "Actions Which Might Result in an Unfair Advantage" -- as stated in Article Q12652 in your Q&A on your official site.
The specific charge against the "victors" is the following, and I quote from your site:
"[Game Exploits]
Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play may have their account suspended and all items or experience obtained through those means confiscated."
I am specifically referring to the concept of what has become called "logging hate". My understanding of it is as follows:
At three points in the final Pandemonium Warden fight, PW puts out a series of avatars and then casts Astral Flow (the summoner 2-hour). If the Blood Pacts are then allowed to resolve, everyone wipes and the fight fails.
So, apparently, what Apathy did then was:
-- One person, probably a Red Mage (almost certainly a PLD/RDM, probably), casts Area of Effect Damage over Time spells to gain massive emnity on Pandemonium Warden and all the avatars in play.
-- Said player then runs like Hell. Not a problem to this point -- this often happens in Dynamis.
-- Here's the problem: All other players then log out of the game, by pre-arranged agreement.
-- The player being chased by the mob of monsters dies, sacrificing himself to allow the party the needed time to log out. Logging out clears the list of all players in the fight with emnity to Pandemonium Warden. With no remaining players alive with emnity to Pandemonium Warden, the NM will go back to his spawn point and, essentially, stop. No further aggressive action will be taken until someone is aggressive to it. During this time, everyone else logs back in (the timeframe I heard was 2 minutes), and the sacrificial lamb is raised and healed.
Repeat as needed to avoid Astral Flow wiping the entire linkshell.
The use of logging out to avoid Astral Flow and to clear all emnity to Pandemonium Warden is the use of a game mechanic (logging out) not intended as a means of normal game play.
There is only one normal game-play use of logging out: to leave Final Fantasy XI. The use of logging out to clear hate, as well as to force Pandemonium Warden to cease attacking, is not only an exploitation of the code of logging out, but also of the code of the specific traits of Pandemonium Warden (in that it ceases all attacks and will not attack further, once it's emnity list is clear, until new emnity is made against it).
This action is a clear violation of the rules against Game Exploits, quoted above.
Two weeks ago, you took the strongest action yet against long-time players who have been cheating the system. The posting of this article to the official FFXI website gives not only legality to this strategy, but legitimacy as well.
That cannot be allowed to stand.
Not only is the strategy illegal, by your own statements in your Q&A (unless you really want to try to claim there are other normal game-play uses of logging out of the game -- and I would like to hear them now if there are!!), but the posting of the "victory" on the official site gives the strategy legitimacy (something not even the Kraken Club DRK strategy had when Absolute Virtue was made a 2-hour situation).
The article must come down. The Special Task Force needs to investigate this. The "champions", as it were, need to be suspended, if not banned.
Failure to do so will leave players with a question which I am certain you do not want them to have. That question being: Since, if this strategy is allowed, Square-Enix allows and encourages the use of only those exploits which they CHOOSE to have allowed, which exploits are allowed and which are not?
If you want legitimacy regarding keeping the game fair, that is a question you must avoid at all cost. Investigate this "victory".
(On edit: And for those who don't think I'm serious -- and this isn't the last e-mail I'm running to SE damned soon, this was sent to the STF from the Service and Support link (with small editing for clarity and to get it down to space... 6:21 PM PST 2/5/09)
Posts
92 comments:
Although i do agree im some terms as to they WAY they killed it was not totally normal and it was not killed as SE had intended to do it, you have a VERY LARGE amount of sand in your vagina.
SE could have coded logging out to not reset hate.
They didn't.
qq someone has PW drops and i don't ;;
Do I ever cross your mind in the warm sunshine?
First of all, the person who casts Diaga doesn't get massive hate on PW himself, he get's hate on the lamps that he spawns just before Astral Flow. Second of all, the logging out isn't even necessary. The only reason they do it is to be safe. The way the hate is shared between the avatars, the lamps and PW means the person putting Diaga on the lamps just before Astral Flow is the only person that gets hit.
Let me guess, you got banned for duping items?
So when you accidentally aggro something that will kill you and you cant zone do you
A. sleep it and log out to live
B. Take the death and laugh it off because its just normal game mechanics to die?
Ive logged off to shed hate on many a things. From CFH'd mobs to accidental aggros, to when my linkshell was wiping and there was no reason for me to die as well if I could help it. I've never fought PW..but I dont see what they did as something that was any different then any other avoid-death scenarios everybody has to have done several times in game.
Its standard game knowledge, procedure and a working as intended game mechanic. I dont know if anybody remembers the pre-mpk patch. Adjusting log out hate would just turn places like garlaige citadel into garbage shitadel all over again.
Unlike..say..item duping where people were creating multiples of items that sell for millions of gil and were getting rich off of it...thats an exploit.
Sooooo let me get this straight. Because they used a function that is in the game (logging) to their advantage they should be banned? That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. This isn't the duping exploit. That's where they purposely found a flaw in the system and used it to their advantage. Logging is not a flaw. It is a function that was purposely put into the game. Salvage duping was not. Players adapt and that's what these guys did. They found something that was purposely put into the game and they used it. Hell there are a lot of things in the game that aren't being used as SE intended them to be. Get off your jealousy because it sounds petty.
They didn't log hate, they all DCed at the same time by accident. It just happened to be at the time that PW astral flowed. There, now you have no case. (Get over it)
As far as I know from what I've read, there was no hate logging done. They logged before the given % and never had hate on the lamps or the avatars they summon. The game is coded to not allow the logging of hate; I'd say go read Kanican's enmity testing but clearly reading is already not your strong suit. Or maybe just fight a CoP wyrm even once and try and log hate. You'll find that you'll log back in and still get eaten by Tia.
This entry is a total failure. Save yourself some embarassment and delete it from blogger.
Gee, I must've started something... Good to hear.
So let's go down the list:
hogie48: Yes I do have a large bit of sand up my ass. And the reason is that it is clear that there is a serious problem with the player base acting like cheating bitches. This linkshell used the game mech of logging out in a way not intended and creating an unfair advantage. Time for the STF to get a look, wipe the win from the record, and perhaps wipe the linkshell too.
Brandon: You realize, Brandon, that what you are saying here is that it is not possible (for many of these "players") to defeat _ANY_ of these top-tier monsters without violating the Terms of Service. That may not be what you are trying to mean, sir, but that is what you are saying, whether you realize that or not.
Remind me to avoid your linkshells at all cost. Sounds like you're one of those cheating bastards that need to be slapped around a bit.
And if you don't want me "to Q.Q like little bitches", do something about it. I live in Riverside, California.
Maxxthepenguin: Have you even been around the last two weeks, to understand the irrelevance of your comment? That would be ANOTHER ground for the STF to ban Apathy.
Xx: I "have to be like that" because of idiots like you and a lot of the FFXI player-base, especially those here in the States.
Raen Ryong: So it _IS_ all about the drops, and no regard to how they got them or that they played fairly or anything like that, eh??? No wonder most of the top-level players are either banned already or running a bit scared right now. Ends justify the means, eh??
It's players like you which will kill Final Fantasy XI. No joke whatsoever in that.
Titanss: No. I wonder if you even have a mind for anything to cross it.
Robert: It's irrelevant that they do it "to be safe". They ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT -- whatever the reason. That they do it ("to be safe" or for whatever other purpose) violates the rules against game exploits and needs to be punished as such to prevent people from having to ask themselves whether Square-Enix has allowed this exploit versus that one.
And as for your other question: Have you read any other post on this blog??? (*raises The People's Eyebrow*) I'm not insulted by that you asked the question (if you had read the blog, you'd have realized that the actions of the banned raise questions about all 75's, _including me_), but more insult-my-intelligence'd because that statement would not have been made if you'd read almost any other post on this blog.
Stephanie: b) You take the death and have to laugh it off. If you can't sleep it and run to the zone fast enough, you die. Granted, that might not be the most actionable exploit, but look at the quote again and tell me that's not an exploit which should be actionable.
The game mechanic of logging out has one purpose: to leave Final Fantasy XI. If it is used in any manner in relation to an action taken in the game, it is an exploit, because the only purpose for the game mechanic of leaving the game is to actually remove oneself from the game, if for five minutes or five years. When you start trying to abuse those game mechanics, that's when "Actions Which Might Constitute an Unfair Advantage" triggers.
I'll address the rest of your thing more when I turn this into Flamage Part 11, Stephanie... Comments like yours seem to indicate that there are very few players playing the _game_ anymore, and most of you are trying to game the system...
Brent: Read the rule again -- in fact, read it the first time. The game mechanic is NOT intended for any purpose within the game -- it is ONLY intended to leave the game. Taking a party and creating an alliance out of it is also "a function within the game". Under that premise, your stand against the Salvage-dupers makes no sense.
Paul: I actually have read stuff -- are you sure you're talking about the same mechanic here between Tia and PW...
As stated above, Logging hate does not work, and is not against the rules as it does not break the known limits of the game like the duping did.
You will remain on a Hate list until the entire hate list is logged out or killed, regardless if you logged out then back in. All you do is buy yourself time in a safe spot. You can get the same advantage from fleeing away far enough till it switches interest or another gains hate over you, losing scent/tracking trait it tracks by well its on you, or zoning. All based on the mob type and zone you are in. Your argument is as valid as saying casting a Damage over time spell on a monster and then dying only to re-raise and repeat until its dead is against ToS.
Logging is just as same as using the AI and ground mechanics to your advantage. If you notice for example a Goblin runs around and flanks to the right or left sometimes when your on a hill in the highlands, you can use that to your advantage. The same sometimes happens to players, sometimes you can be standing next to a monster but can't hit it cause of some terrain issue you can't see but the monster can.
Its basic war mechanics anyways. A lot of battles in history were won by using whats given to you. How you "Mcguyver'd it", is up to you.
Anyways back on the topic. Logging is a mechanic in the game and SE made it save your enmity until remaining targets are dead or logged out as well. Deal with it. As stated once, Ninja wasn't a tank. Players made them into tanks. SE accepted it even though they were against it and had different plans for the job. Deal with the fact logging is in the same boat.
SE won't be able to do a thing, some logouts are mistakes, some are on purpose, some are server issue reasons. If they say tried to make it so your enmity was saved forever until the mob was dead when you logged, you could see people claiming something then using invincible and logging/Disconnecting. Which would make the mob forever claimed, the equivalent of cock blocking but with HNMs etc. Something that would be more of a pain in the ass in the end. There is a 30 second wait for a reason anyways, read below.
So Suck it up and deal with the fact that logging out is part of the game. Its the same as Zoning. They both move you out of the range of the mobs, the only difference is that logging lets you do it where you stand AND makes your wait 30 secs where zoning is instant. It gives the monster(s) a fair amount of time to come get you in that time frame.
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Another argument I will debunk was listed earlier on websites in the week about their PW kill. Voice chat, using Ventrilo or Team Speak to their advantage. I will only say one thing, FFXI is on 360, it has party chat. It cannot be against the rules, and you can always conference call your friends and use the speaker phone if your not a pc or a 360 user. So that attempted mark against the kill earlier in the week is invalid.
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The final mark someone stated against Apathy before was the use of windower and plugins. This is a gray line and can and might be the only place for argument. You can see monster HP and your friends TP and mp beyond that of non windower users. You can also see recast times and distance.
All windower does is save you time, where you could be spamming a macro that tells you your recasts and you and your alliance can spam TP call macros. There are ways to work around windower, as there are ways to work around voice chat.
That is why this is a gray line. It is the only spot for arguments and statements, which I would say is acceptable to argue about.
I do admit that using windower, appears to be the equivalent of a calculator mod(for sED students, I'm a math teacher btw) on a non-calculator math test. It doesn't mean they can't and haven't worked without it for a long period of time before, even after growing accustomed to it.
They can just as simply show the work on the math test and do it manually over using the calculator. Given depending on the person it could take them longer.
Only the plugins(If any besides V.1.0 of Light Luggage, which lets you cast lots well dead) that allow for bending beyond the manual labor of the game player are those which are wrong and completely in the red area as cheating.
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If you still wish to argue the log out as being an exploit. What about peoples connection Lag?, aka Jumping around sometimes. Or Delivery Box Queue backup(upto 100+ inventory slots basically).
All of these are given to us to use how we want, D-Box is susceptible to being lost by character restoration or server issues/Transfer, so it comes with a risk, Just as log out could get your monster stolen. But other peoples Lag is sometimes out of there hands, should we ban someone cause they are on Dial up and seem to pos hack when all they have is a bad connection? Or how about someone with great connection who can claim over us? oooh lets argue that!
...
calintzspo Re: Everyone would've had to have logged out...: That's exactly, to my understanding, what they did -- everybody in the fight who was not on the sac-pull logged out, to create exactly the situation you describe. All hate has to have been either logged out or been killed for PW to cease attacks.
(This is why the pre-arrangement had the people who logged out wait upwards of two minutes before logging back in.)
Re: Continual DoT kiting being against ToS? : There are, in fact, some who have claimed that forms of kiting as you've suggested may also be against the ToS -- it's clearly against the ToS to "hold" an NM (or even the spawners of an NM, in certain cases) in this manner until you can get your alliance to the area in question (which is clearly plausible -- think DNC/RDM with enough MP and Chocobo Jig to stay one step ahead). Whether doing some of these by direct DoT is or not is, well, unknown...
Re: Using what is given to you or even "McGyvering" it: Again, you're trying to justify all means to victory -- the dupers were given their means to victory by Square-Enix themselves (not that Square-Enix intended for it, but they didn't intend the PW strat either). What makes that illegal vs. what you suppose here to be legal? This is where you get to the point of "which exploits are allowed or not?", and why that can't be a place where Square-Enix and FFXI can go.
I would suggest reading some of my other blog posts and to the posts to which they refer: There are, in fact, explicit rules against using the game geography in a manner in which to absolutely prevent a monster from being able to attack you. So there is a plausible argument to be made that the example you give there (the terrain issue) might be an unfair advantage (to player or monster).
There's a difference here between what Square-Enix may or may not be able to conclude. It's fairly evident that a coordinated pattern of logouts occurred. That's different than something which you assert. There appears to be a coordinated pattern in which the players strategically logged out to avoid being attacked, and then returned to the fight later. If the investigation can uncover this (and that, at least to my read, would be rather simple), Square-Enix has action here.
And, as for cock-blocking an NM as you suggest: There's already rules against that too. They could implement a rememberance of hate, and then ban people for, again, holding NM's, which would be ridiculously easier under that scenario, as you assert.
I never actually made any statement vs. voice chat, but that's an interesting discussion. That, because of the specific capabilities of the XLax CrashBox 360, would probably have to stand. (My comments against the XBox have nothing specifically to do with the argument.)
Windower and plug-ins need to be addressed: They need to be made illegal, and if the players don't like it, there's no more FFXI, or the plug-ins need to be implemented into legal Windowed Mode. Windowed Mode is nothing but a concession as to the use of Windower. The access to information not available (or at much greater speed) to those not using third-party programs definitely constitutes an unfair advantage. Saving time can constitute quite an unfair advantage in fights and situations where time is golden.
And, before you ask, I do not use Windower.
As for lag issues, there's a difference between the jumping around you see when you are lagging and a pos hack.
Wow man. Just wow. You're about as anal as the guy who puts his toothpaste in a vise to get the last drop. The duping exploit was a bit of code that wasn't intentionally programmed into the game. That's why it's considered an exploit. The game was intentionally programmed with a log out function. You need to stop being Mr. Anal because all your doing is trying to make yourself look like a self righteous moron. And I'm sure you're history in the game hasn't exactly been pristine. And if you try to say otherwise you're a fool. At one point in time everyone has done something that violates the TOS written up by SE. I'm sure you're in that same boat. Stop bashing Apathy because they accomplished something that you in your self righteous glory couldn't do. People like you make me sick. You preach about following the TOS and you swear to others on the internet that you are right. Guess what you're no better then anyone else. Stop trying to grow your e peen because all your doing is making yourself look stupid to many people out there.
And you, sir, have nothing to add to the process -- and the victory was illegally obtained (not just illegitimate).
Unfortunately (for you), your entire argument revolves around a statement for which you have absolutely zero proof, namely:
"The use of logging out to avoid Astral Flow and to clear all emnity to Pandemonium Warden is the use of a game mechanic (logging out) not intended as a means of normal game play."
You can quote the ToS all you want, nowhere in it does it define what actions are "not intended as normal means of game play", especially with regard to logging out. All you offer is "obviously logging out was only intended to leave ffxi". This, sir, is not proof, it's you're worthless opinion, and based on the replies you've gotten so far, its also far from obvious.
Keeping this in mind, if we want to take actual evidence into account, based on what we have available to us, as players, logging hate always has been, is, and always will be an intended use of logging out, because it is well known throughout the community, it has happened an overwhelming number of times throughout the history of ffxi, on every monster conceivable, and no one in history has ever had any action taken by S-E against them for it. Not to mention the fact that S-E themselves posted an article on their own homepage condoning and even praising this specific victory (and if you seriously think S-E doesn't know exactly how Apathy defeated PW, you're an idiot).
You can't use common sense, Jason???
(Certainly, if you're from the generation most gamers are from, that would most certainly be true.)
You can't figure out that the only intended use of logging out is to leave the game? Or are you always searching for that one way to game the system in your favor for unfair advantage?
I mean, THINK. (If you can...) You can't use proper English, you have no common sense (proven by that you believe there is another legitimate purpose to logging out from the game than exiting FFXI), and you clearly have no argument, so you are hoping (I pray, for the future of FFXI, that you are wrong...) that they'll just sit on their hands.
They do that on the grave peril of any future for FFXI. They might see the 7th anniversary, but there is no way they see #8 without major crackdowns on high-level players. Their investigation into Salvage proved that once and for all.
By your "argument", splitting one Salvage group into three groups to exploit the drops is just as known a strategy and just as legitimate to the player base as this. So why is that illegal and this not?
"You can't use common sense, Jason???
(Certainly, if you're from the generation most gamers are from, that would most certainly be true.)"
I'm going to try and ignore your blatant and ubiquitous use of ad hominem arguments throughout your reply.
"You can't figure out that the only intended use of logging out is to leave the game? Or are you always searching for that one way to game the system in your favor for unfair advantage?"
No, I guess i can't. Not from reading the Terms of Service, not from any of the evidence S-E has provided us with so far regarding this issue, and certainly not from the complete LACK of evidence you've provided in support of your argument.
"I mean, THINK. (If you can...) You can't use proper English,"
Ad hominem... and seriously? It's the god-damned internet, get over it.
"you have no common sense (proven by that you believe there is another legitimate purpose to logging out from the game than exiting FFXI)"
At least my "beliefs" are supported by the evidence at hand (i.e. complete lack of any fix for logging hate, ever; Condoning of the PW kill by SE). Yours, on the other hand, seem to be based on nothing but wishful thinking and some twisted sense of morality in a video game.
"and you clearly have no argument, so you are hoping (I pray, for the future of FFXI, that you are wrong...) that they'll just sit on their hands."
I actually stated my argument in my first post, and then went on to provide evidence in favor of it. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but preach your position and slander those who provide counter-points. If you could provide some type of actual evidence for your claim that logging hate is clearly against the ToS, maybe this debate could move past the "entire internet laughing at you" stage.
"They do that on the grave peril of any future for FFXI. They might see the 7th anniversary, but there is no way they see #8 without major crackdowns on high-level players. Their investigation into Salvage proved that once and for all."
And most of those people are banned. When will you realize its S-E who decides what's right and wrong in their game, and in gray areas such as this, they make the call, not you? Once again, S-E's condoning of this fight, and praise even, is overwhelming evidence in favor of logging hate not being against the ToS.
"By your "argument", splitting one Salvage group into three groups to exploit the drops is just as known a strategy and just as legitimate to the player base as this. So why is that illegal and this not?"
Nice strawman there. Actually, my argument has nothing to do with the salvage bans. The salvage bans were an unfair advantage because they were kept secret, from both other players and S-E. Had salvage dupes been common knowlege, and the glitch been reported to GMs and STF multiple times without any action on SE's part, then maybe, it might fit into my argument. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't.
Just to make sure, though, why don't we just find out from the source? I went to the POL website and found this little gem in the "Question's and Answers" section:
http://i42.tinypic.com/30a5lax.jpg
Unfortunately, the specific scenario we're talking about (logging for hate), isn't listed under their examples. So i decided to do what they told me to do, and call a GM...
http://i40.tinypic.com/s1m7uw.jpg
Lo and behold, I got my answer in 5 minutes, and I didn't even have to write a mind-numbingly retarded article to do it.
Key points from the conversation:
[GM]Exidious>> At this time, it wouldn't be considered a violation to log out during combat to avoid attacks from a monster, as doing so requires that a monster doesn't attack you for a period of time beforehand
[GM]Exidious>> ...this event has actually been posted in the main news section; I suppose that means Playonline officially recognizes this defeat.
Can you please for the love of the internet shut the hell up now? It's not cheating, it's not an exploit. Go back to farming beehive chips.
By the by, my comment at 8:24 was to BK, not to Brent. Brent probably was responding, but BK, as I said, had nothing to add, so he got in first.
To Brent: The game was intentionally programmed with a means to leave it -- duh. The _problem_ is that these players have taken that mechanism and used it in a manner which constitutes an illegal and suspendable/bannable offense by using it to create an unfair advantage.
The point I have been trying to ram down your throats is that there is NO DIFFERENCE, vis-a-vis the rules, between an exploit of a coding error ((the Salvage dupes), and the exploit of a game mechanism in a way which creates a tangible (and, hence, unfair) advantage (this case, and possibly many others).
I am calling for an investigation on the latter grounds, and those who don't like that can kiss my entire ass.
I think I've now figured out why places like BluGartr have such a bad reputation -- their clientele is a bunch of children who basically cheat and bitch and moan and flame-war.
More "Fun with Jason":
I'm going to try and ignore your blatant and ubiquitous use of ad hominem arguments throughout your reply.
If I did that, there'd be no reply to you, except to conclude that you make no sense.
Judging by your response, it sounds like some of the GMs might fall into that same realm (this is why I appeal directly to the Special Task Force -- the Salvage dupes, also, were reported and GM'ed, and summarily ignored until someone finally blew the whistle directly to the STF).
"You can't figure out that the only intended use of logging out is to leave the game? Or are you always searching for that one way to game the system in your favor for unfair advantage?"
No, I guess i can't. Not from reading the Terms of Service, not from any of the evidence S-E has provided us with so far regarding this issue, and certainly not from the complete LACK of evidence you've provided in support of your argument.
And, hence, it is in no way surprising that calling you on your shit regarding your utter lack of common sense. My charge is the use of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended to gain a tangible, and, hence, unfair advantage by the rules regarding Game Exploits, as referenced in the original article.
If you don't believe that this logging hate constitutes as such, Jason, you are then left to show that logging off the game actually has another purpose than leaving the game. I'm still waiting, people.
(And, not only that, but then a case could be made that the Salvage-dupers should not have been punished at all, since it was the same type of error (Brandon's argument, above) that Square-Enix was totally at fault for...)
"I mean, THINK. (If you can...) You can't use proper English,"
Ad hominem... and seriously? It's the god-damned internet, get over it.
Stop writing like a text-messaging punk, then.
"you have no common sense (proven by that you believe there is another legitimate purpose to logging out from the game than exiting FFXI)"
At least my "beliefs" are supported by the evidence at hand (i.e. complete lack of any fix for logging hate, ever; Condoning of the PW kill by SE). Yours, on the other hand, seem to be based on nothing but wishful thinking and some twisted sense of morality in a video game.
And I am calling for that condoning to be reversed. Not doing so will leave the players in a position of not only wondering which exploits are and are not allowed, and, even, whether some players are allowed to use exploits other players are not.
Lose that kind of game balance and integrity, and you truly (to use the colloquialism) have lost the game.
Because, make no secret: This is an exploit. Quoted in the rules of the game on Square-Enix' website. You can't deny that unless you want to say that Square-Enix is lying about the rules.
Oh, wait, you ARE saying that...
"and you clearly have no argument, so you are hoping (I pray, for the future of FFXI, that you are wrong...) that they'll just sit on their hands."
I actually stated my argument in my first post, and then went on to provide evidence in favor of it. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but preach your position and slander those who provide counter-points. If you could provide some type of actual evidence for your claim that logging hate is clearly against the ToS, maybe this debate could move past the "entire internet laughing at you" stage.
Jason has fallen into the "Truth By Consensus" trap: the trap of "I'm right because everyone else says I'm right."
No, Jason. I quoted the rule, I stated the situation, I stated the use of a game mechanic outside the means which was intended which gained a tangible advantage in Apathy's battle against PW. The evidence is there, but you (and a lot of other people), choose to ignore it.
"They do that on the grave peril of any future for FFXI. They might see the 7th anniversary, but there is no way they see #8 without major crackdowns on high-level players. Their investigation into Salvage proved that once and for all."
And most of those people are banned. When will you realize its S-E who decides what's right and wrong in their game, and in gray areas such as this, they make the call, not you? Once again, S-E's condoning of this fight, and praise even, is overwhelming evidence in favor of logging hate not being against the ToS.
950 was a token number. Unless you want to proclaim that exceedingly few people actually have played Salvage in that 18-month period, then I call bullshit on your claim, because there's no way they could've reviewed that many Salvage logs over a 60-day period. None.
And, also, I would think that this would open the eyes of Square-Enix as to the amount of abuse out there, leading to more investigations of more of the exploits the player community has been using.
"By your "argument", splitting one Salvage group into three groups to exploit the drops is just as known a strategy and just as legitimate to the player base as this. So why is that illegal and this not?"
Nice strawman there. Actually, my argument has nothing to do with the salvage bans. The salvage bans were an unfair advantage because they were kept secret, from both other players and S-E. Had salvage dupes been common knowlege, and the glitch been reported to GMs and STF multiple times without any action on SE's part, then maybe, it might fit into my argument. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't.
Actually, it was clearly reported, by all accounts, a number of times. Someone finally blew the whistle strongly enough to get their attention (probably some high-caliber Japanese players got their attention as to the nature of the disgrace). So, basically, what you proposed here is what actually happened. Salvage dupes were absolutely common knowledge among the entire Salvage end-game player-base (which see the reactions on BluGartr when they were finally yanked, and moreover when the bans took place). So, by your admission, my argument has merit.
Just to make sure, though, why don't we just find out from the source? I went to the POL website and found this little gem in the "Question's and Answers" section:
(the "some examples of taking advantage of in-game mechanics not intended")
I quoted the larger question, Q12652 (if my memory serves me correctly), from the same source.
You then charge a GM was called and it was openly stated that the win is legal and legitimate. You may consider my statement an appeal to the "Supreme Court" of Final Fantasy XI, because that ruling, if allowed to stand, leads to one AND ONLY ONE conclusion:
Players are left, then, to wonder which exploits (and by which players) are to be punished. If this ruling is legal, then there is another legitimate purpose to logging off the game other than leaving the game.
That is counter-intuitive and dangerous to continued game balance.
lololomg. You've never force-dc'd to lose some hate, or logout after sleeping some agro? Have you ever fake-dc'd on a party? You cheater! Exploiting game mechanics to get out of a party!
Omnys: No, and no.
I have never slept a mob and logged out.
Never fake-DCed a party. (Now, I've _real_-DC'ed a party -- try doing a Windows update with FFXI running -- kee-rash...)
Never used Windower...
Want to try some more??
Apparently you've never leveled BST. I've often used this method when the stuff hits the fan.
The only time it was deemed illegal was the POL temp logout that was removed from the game, as it was being used as and exploit.
By logging out, there is obvious risk that someone else will claim the Warden. SE won't stop that, nor will they stop people from logging out to drop hate.
Tim Newton: And another idiot who uses BG is heard from -- not that all people who use BG are idiots, but an idiot who uses BG has been heard from.
First, see that button above the left Shift key? It's called "Caps Lock".
Second, see that button near the back of your computer, marked "Off"? Please push it.
Pawkeshup: Let's clear up a couple misconceptions in your comment.
First, I have levelled Beastmaster -- all the way to 75!! I've _NEVER_ used that trick. Not _once_. So don't fall into another member of the group that essentially states you have to cheat to win.
Second, there was a reason they removed that which you spoke of: That was made into an exploit because there was only the one reason for them to have had it, and that was the temporary logout to go back to POL, in case one got a mail message or something. But, again, that was the _one purpose_ for that game mechanic -- full logouts are being exploited the same way here!
If SE does not wish that to be stopped, then the game falls to sham, because then one has to ask what game exploits are allowed (and which are allowed for which players)...
Mr. Newton: I would like to introduce you to your Caps Lock key, but that would require another introduction: You to a brain.
You're right, though, about every game having the cheaters. What you obviously choose _not_ to understand, however, is that the game dies unless the cheating is either eradicated or kept to a minimum.
Now, this might go over your head:
The bannings on January 22 exposed to the world (and not just the one within FFXI) that it appears as if cheating has become necessary, in the eyes of the players, for "winning", advancement, notoriety and fame, and high-level equipment. Now, I don't know about you because I don't know whether you are 18 years old or 6 (and you certainly act the latter, even if you are the former): But, back when I used to be your age, we didn't allow that shit. Why that should change now for punks like you is beyond me.
It's almost as if to say you not only own this game, but all the other players in it who don't suck your cock, kiss your ass, and proclaim you their ultimate superior vis-a-vis FFXI.
You damned good well and right I'm a sanctimonious prick. That goes double when I have to deal with little punks like your sorry ass.
hahahaha.....
hahahahahhaa xD
oh god... hahaha
While we're at it, let's bring in the police in the game! Be sure to get them good those damn cheaters! Give em a 48 hours in jail to make sure they have time to think about how bad they've been!
one more thing...
just for you Starcade...
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahaha
haha
Normally I'd ask you if you're actually serious with this.... but.... oh my god lol. All I can do is laugh at you at this point.
SO STARCADE WHATS IT LIKE BEING A 39 YEAR OLD VIRGIN NAMED MICHAEL WHO CRYS ON THE INTERNETS OVER A LOLVIDEOGAME, I EXPECT YOUR NEXT BLOG POST TO GO INTO DETAILS OVER IT
BTW CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL. LRN 2 INTERNETS
Holding and NM's isn't against ToS.
It was changed about 3-4 years after the "popular" release of "Rage timers" on set monsters. This list of monsters has been increased as the game has gone on. Sandworm, Dark Ixion, etc.
Link: https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index.html
Type in "About Monster Holding" or "Q12773" to make it search faster. Read down where it mentions about the August 2005 changes and on. No longer in those regards(Last updated in 07) will they do SHIT about holding those nms. The lists grown sense, anything that rages is now included.
Pull your ToS Cry Wolf shit out of your ass before you talk again cockbite.
Aph: Have you been reading my other posts??? You laugh at the concept, but, under California law, bringing the police in is not out of the question.
You forget one simple fact: Square-Enix owns everything about FFXI -- all the code, all the characters, all the items, everything. They are the sole arbiter as to who gets what, how, when, and why.
Actions which controvert that (which apply to both the Salvage-duping and the PW "victory", as well as a number of other cheats that you and yours have been exploiting for God knows how long.
Seriously, be careful what you laugh at.
Mr. Newton again: How does it feel to be a whiny ass cheater punk who doesn't know anything other than his Caps Lock key?
The reason I "cry" about this kind of stuff is people like you -- little punks who need to be shut down good and quickfast. I look at the actions that a lot of you condone and I wonder what kind of people you are in real life. Of course, with "heroes" like A-Roid (who should be headed to federal prison any day now, along with all of Major League Baseball), how can one be particularly surprised?
It's called having some integrity -- learn it. You won't survive if you don't.
Consider that Square-Enix is now at its lowest stock price in five years (and, before you talk about the larger economy, video games is one of the few entertainment genres which still seems to be doing rather well these days). They just pushed back FFXIII US into 2010. Punks like you will kill this game, and I don't want to see that happen.
calintzpo: I'll need to find the exact quote (it was discussing one of those NM's where there are, like, 12 different spawns in an isolated part of the zone to bring the NM into play by killing them), but holding even some _spawns_ of these NM's can be considered against the ToS, much less the NM's themselves. Oh, it's probably a very common tactic, but, again, how many of you really play the game legitimately anymore?
I'll more than gladly read it, because I can tell you I've heard different since 2005...
Um ok so by your logging out is only meant for leaving FFXI then mules are against the ToS since it's not leaving FFXI and keeping gear that mains don't have room for.
Dude get off your fucking high horse, people like you make me sick.
Never used ps2 glitch to run under the water, or the pc glitch to run around on the airship?
Stop lying that you have never done anything against ToS, in one way or another all of us have done something small against it.
But logging out to try to lose hate, or logging a slept mob isn't against ToS. Stop flaming cause you weren't the one to think of this first and beat PW first. Go back to your mother's basement and cry in your pillow little emo boy.
Um ok so by your logging out is only meant for leaving FFXI then mules are against the ToS since it's not leaving FFXI and keeping gear that mains don't have room for.
Dude get off your fucking high horse, people like you make me sick.
Never used ps2 glitch to run under the water, or the pc glitch to run around on the airship?
Stop lying that you have never done anything against ToS, in one way or another all of us have done something small against it.
But logging out to try to lose hate, or logging a slept mob isn't against ToS. Stop flaming cause you weren't the one to think of this first and beat PW first. Go back to your mother's basement and cry in your pillow little emo boy.
I've read every posts in this blog, and you, by a tremendously long reach, have the most entirely, completly and utterly ridiculous posts. And I'll continue to laugh at you with all my heart and soul just for the mount of stupidity you show every time. I bet the police would laugh at you too. If you really did send an e-mail to the STF concerning this, I'll bet that they, too, are laughing at you.
Read this entire blog again and see the absolute absurdity of it all. It's totally ridiculous.
You can't possibly be 39 years old are you? I feel very sorry for you if you are and still get butt-hurt over this. It's quite pathetic indeed.
Well, have fun crying over a videogame.
HEY STARCADE I MADE A WEBSITE ABOUT YOU, YOU SHOULD GO CHECK IT OUT
www.starcadeisawhinybitch.on.nimp.org
ENJOY,
TIM NEWTON
Mr. Newton: You are the biggest fucking idiot I've seen in years. I talk about your idiotic, headache-inducing "posts" all in caps, and you feel the need to tell me that you've been playing on the PS2... What? You surf the fucking web on that too?
Angel: The entire usage of mules is going to have to be examined as a possible ToS too, if that's what you are talking about.
And people like you who are made sick by people like me who demand integrity within the game will kill FFXI. You may already be in the process of doing so, if Square-Enix' stock prices are any indication. So I make you sick... That tells me volumes about your conduct on this game.
Never used the PS2 glitch to run underwater. Never used any glitch to run around the airship in places I didn't belong. Try _again_.
Angel, if you are basically saying that everyone in the game has cheated, and that it's impossible to play by the ToS, then it's time for Square-Enix to shut down FFXI. It's a sham game at that point.
Unless you are telling me that there is another legitimate purpose to logging out than to leave the game, logging hate, in any form, is just as illegal as the Salvage-duping, and needs to be treated as such.
Aph: It's the fact that I a older than a bunch of HAXORZ punks like you that makes me sick.
"I am Starcade, my game should be viewed in black and white only, no grey, and I do NOT tolerate tolerance! D="
Am I the only one that has noticed in the game that the oldest people (40+) are usually the ones that act the most like little bitches? Not to say that all of them do, but most of the time, when you hear whinings and crying over the most ridiculous things, it so happens to be a middle-aged person or older.
Just answer me one thing Mr.IamRight. How could SE possibly control when people log hate? Are they going to prevent people from "logging out" to ensure no one does that? SE:"If you log out, you cannot log back in! Your soul belongs to us!"
Use some fucking common sense and stop crying like a goddamn baby.
But, just for the sake of giving everyone a good laugh, please do continue with your procedures with the STF to try and get those people banned.
and btw:
"Aph: It's the fact that I a older than a bunch of HAXORZ punks like you that makes me sick."
That doesn't even make any sense. You're saying that you get sick because you are older than most of us here. Geez, growing old sure sucks huh. It apparently damages the brain.
Anyway, yea, STF, police, whatever, carry on. I get a chuckle out of every one of your new posts.
If you don't like how SE does things, how the player base does things, and how SE and they player base work together to do things.. then you should quit the game.
I realize that you think not using windower, not logging hate, and not dcing purposely means you should be awarded some medal by SE..but that's not true.
No matter what you say. No matter what you do, even if some people agree with you.. SE makes the final decision. That's it. I know you don't like what happened.. But I have any idea for you.
GO FARM A PANDEMONIUM WARDEN POP SET. AND FUCKING POP IT YOURSELF. WIN WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING WEIRD..JUST STRAIGHT TANK IT. Have your rdm's debuff, dd's stand there meleeing, white mages curing, black mages nuking, etc.. APPARENTLY IN YOUR OPPINION DOING ANYTHING ELSE IS CHEATING. WELL FOR YOUR INFORMATION ASSHOLE.. MY LS TRIED IT. AND IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.
So I'm glad someone did something different. Glad someone got this victory.. And glad SE approved. B/c i don't know about anyone else, but I was damn sick of seeing people defeat AV, and have SE bitch and moan then patch it. If they didn't agree with this.. believe me you shit head.. THEY WOULDNT HAVE RECOGNIZED IT. They sure as fucking hell didn't recognize the AV defeats.. but they also didn't take any of the gear away. SO STOP ACTING LIKE A BABY AND GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF.
Playing the teachers pet might have gotten you somewhere in high school.. But it's not going to get you anywhere with SE.
Oh..and just another tid bit.. TELLING SE THEY ARE WRONG won't get you anywhere. Do me a favor.. make sure you send them your pol ID too.. hopefully they'll be annoyed by you so much that a cppl GM's will follow you around and make your life a living hell. I know that would make a lot of people who play this game a lot happier..
Maybe if you never get another drop, get agro constantly and die all the damn time.. you might learn to not fuck with the big guy who ALLOWS YOU ACCESS to that character that you've omg never done anything wrong on.
GOOD FOR YOU. .. I bet you were one of those kids who refused to use a game genie..b/c it fucked with the game mechanics of games. WTF EVER ASSHOLE.
One thing I do wonder if you've ever looked on Alla.. which you obviously use, because you mentioned it. Do you look up info on quests? IF YOU DO YOU'RE A FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT CHEATER. Well not really. But good luck explaining to me how that doesn't give you some kind of advantage over someone sitting at home with a ps2 and literally no access to the internet.
So mr. high and mighty. Have a nice day. I hope you don't accidentally die b/c you were too stupid to do something SE is completely ok with people doing.
Orinna wins this debate.
Aph:
"I am Starcade, my game should be viewed in black and white only, no grey, and I do NOT tolerate tolerance! D="
Exactly this is why games like this die. "Tolerance" very quickly leads to anarchy in games like this. Square-Enix may well have let the situation go too far and too late. The game may not be unsalvageable.
Of course, you don't care -- you're too fucking hardcore to give a damn about anyone other than yourself.
Am I the only one that has noticed in the game that the oldest people (40+) are usually the ones that act the most like little bitches? Not to say that all of them do, but most of the time, when you hear whinings and crying over the most ridiculous things, it so happens to be a middle-aged person or older.
Oh, gee, I wonder why??? Because some of us old coots actually give a damn about someone other than ourselves and abhor the "I'm more hardcore than fucking thou." culture which will kill not only FFXI, but basically all organized society if it isn't smashed.
If we have no rights to demand a fair game, then there is no game at that point -- it all becomes a matter of who's gaming the system, and, at that point, the simplest answer would be to leave...
Problem being, that's exactly what you cheating turds _want_. You have no regard for anyone or anything except being handed everything on a silver platter. When things finally go tits up in the world, you're little lambs headed to the slaughter.
Just answer me one thing Mr.IamRight. How could SE possibly control when people log hate? Are they going to prevent people from "logging out" to ensure no one does that? SE:"If you log out, you cannot log back in! Your soul belongs to us!"
By banning anyone who uses it as an unfair-advantage exploit, or by keeping a record of such hate on every relevant mob. That's two answers right there.
Use some fucking common sense and stop crying like a goddamn baby.
No, you use some fucking common sense and follow the rules for once. You can't do that? YOU go play WoW and leave FFXI to people who actually want to play the game with some honor, decency, and respect (for Square-Enix, if no one else).
But, just for the sake of giving everyone a good laugh, please do continue with your procedures with the STF to try and get those people banned.
You damned good and right I will.
"Aph: It's the fact that I a older than a bunch of HAXORZ punks like you that makes me sick."
That doesn't even make any sense. You're saying that you get sick because you are older than most of us here. Geez, growing old sure sucks huh. It apparently damages the brain.
No, you and your culture make me sick.
So, Orinna has taken up the cheaters' flag with the following:
If you don't like how SE does things, how the player base does things, and how SE and they player base work together to do things.. then you should quit the game.
Then you fuckers win. It's that simple. If it were as simple as leave the game and not have all you guys laughing that you sent another person off the game who isn't as hardcore, me-first, and 1337 as thou, I'd already be playing WoW, because, frankly, this game, by all measures, appears to be unsavably corrupted with a player base which isn't worth maintaining.
If you guys are the future of FFXI, then Square-Enix should just nuke Vana'diel and be finished with it.
I realize that you think not using windower, not logging hate, and not dcing purposely means you should be awarded some medal by SE..but that's not true.
My "medal", if you choose to look at it as such, is the simple allowance of being allowed to continue to play. If half the game (or more!) is cheating, then that half the game (or more!) needs to be GONE. Otherwise, there is no game anymore -- it all becomes illegitimate. Take a look at Major League Baseball as a good example of an abjectly illegitimate game, and for an equivalent reason.
You've seen fit to juice your characters with anabolic steroids, to coin the analogy. And I want drug testing on all of us.
What you "more hardcore than thou" types want the rest of the world to understand is that you believe you (because of you numbers) run the damn game, and the game can't survive without you. If it can't survive without you -- then it should not survive.
No matter what you say. No matter what you do, even if some people agree with you.. SE makes the final decision. That's it. I know you don't like what happened.. But I have any idea for you.
I don't think Square-Enix really wants to make a decision. It has been my hope that this would wake Square-Enix up to the rampant corruption of high-level players and get something done. If they refuse to do that, then it should be no wonder why their stock prices are going through the floor (even when video games still appear to be doing well in this economy).
GO FARM A PANDEMONIUM WARDEN POP SET. AND FUCKING POP IT YOURSELF. WIN WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING WEIRD..JUST STRAIGHT TANK IT. Have your rdm's debuff, dd's stand there meleeing, white mages curing, black mages nuking, etc.. APPARENTLY IN YOUR OPPINION DOING ANYTHING ELSE IS CHEATING. WELL FOR YOUR INFORMATION ASSHOLE.. MY LS TRIED IT. AND IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.
THEN DON'T DO PANDEMONIUM WARDEN!
I've been telling people for months that they should just ZNM's die if they're not going to be a workable situation.
Just because you believe there is no mechanism without "breaking the game" to kill something does not give you the fucking right to break the game! Got it? Good.
It's like Salvage. Don't like the drop rates -- do what I do: DON'T PLAY SALVAGE. Of course, you just have to have the elite gear and it is of no concern to you to cheat your fucking ass off to get it, right?
So I'm glad someone did something different. Glad someone got this victory.. And glad SE approved. B/c i don't know about anyone else, but I was damn sick of seeing people defeat AV, and have SE bitch and moan then patch it. If they didn't agree with this.. believe me you shit head.. THEY WOULDNT HAVE RECOGNIZED IT.
And I'm asking for the recognition's reversal, moron. And, not only that, but the recognition of Square-Enix of this "victory" indicates that Square-Enix is either willing to completely abrogate it's rules or it's willing to do so for certain players (both of which are certain disaster).
If they recognize this "win", then reverse all the Salvage bannings. It's the same -- damn -- cheating-ass -- shit. That clear enough for you? The only difference, bluntly, is that the Salvage-dupers took advantage of some code, but, in your world, that's all Square-Enix' fault.
They sure as fucking hell didn't recognize the AV defeats.. but they also didn't take any of the gear away. SO STOP ACTING LIKE A BABY AND GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF.
Make me. (That's an easy one...)
Seriously, do you have no fucking shame? Is there no sense in actually trying to attain a legitimate victory anymore? (I'd almost say, given about half the comments I've seen, the answer to that question is that there isn't.)
Playing the teachers pet might have gotten you somewhere in high school.. But it's not going to get you anywhere with SE.
Actually, "playing the teachers' pet" would be more an issue if I: a) expected something in return (which wouldn't be that different than the present apparent environment) and/or b) actually liked what the teacher was doing.
Square-Enix didn't slap you fuckers around hard enough. 900? Try 9,000!!
Oh..and just another tid bit.. TELLING SE THEY ARE WRONG won't get you anywhere. Do me a favor.. make sure you send them your pol ID too.. hopefully they'll be annoyed by you so much that a cppl GM's will follow you around and make your life a living hell. I know that would make a lot of people who play this game a lot happier..
You know what, bitch? I could probably stand up to that scrutiny (something I can't say about much of any of the rest of the high-level player base!!). Hell, having a couple GM's to tag along with me for a while might actually give me some people who might not have a vested interest in spitting at Square-Enix and the legitimate players, like you obviously do.
Maybe if you never get another drop, get agro constantly and die all the damn time.. you might learn to not fuck with the big guy who ALLOWS YOU ACCESS to that character that you've omg never done anything wrong on.
Oh, so now you think that Square-Enix deliberately fucks with the drop rates and hacks the game as it sees fit and for its own entertainment?? That's the only way you could spew THIS pablum. You need to be the one gone, bitch.
GOOD FOR YOU. .. I bet you were one of those kids who refused to use a game genie..b/c it fucked with the game mechanics of games. WTF EVER ASSHOLE.
BINGO!!! You damned right I refused. No GameSharks or anything of that ilk either. What, you so badly need that cheat, hack, crack, exploit, whatever, that you just have to have it to make your gaming experience worthwhile?
Then get off this game. Now.
One thing I do wonder if you've ever looked on Alla.. which you obviously use, because you mentioned it. Do you look up info on quests? IF YOU DO YOU'RE A FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT CHEATER. Well not really. But good luck explaining to me how that doesn't give you some kind of advantage over someone sitting at home with a ps2 and literally no access to the internet.
Ignoring how someone with "literally no access to the Internet" can even play Final Fantasy XI... (I just love how you guys can't even make a logical argument, but you feel you have the power of numbers on your side, so fuck even logic, eh?)
Show me where the use of that kind of stuff is illegal, and we'll talk. Remember, in so doing, that, in the early days of the game (before this stuff was put on the Net) Square-Enix actually authorized Brady Games to put out a book on this stuff for a price, and probably intended that book to be updated periodically (which see all the WoW books in the relevant areas of the bookstores and gaming shops).
So mr. high and mighty. Have a nice day. I hope you don't accidentally die b/c you were too stupid to do something SE is completely ok with people doing.
They aren't OK with it -- unless they wish to start explaining themselves with respect to who can cheat their asses off (and with what!) and who can't.
"Exactly this is why games like this die. "Tolerance" very quickly leads to anarchy in games like this. Square-Enix may well have let the situation go too far and too late. The game may not be unsalvageable."
While "Tolerance" leads to "Anarchy", remember that "No Tolerance" leads to "Dictature". I don't know about you, but I'll take anarchy any day over being a slave.
And before you run your mouth with your honor, you should know what that word means. Honor should let you allow others to live their lives, or play their game, as they wish. You are nobody to tell them what to do with their lives or how to play their game. Ban people for logging out their hate? you sir, are fucked in the head to wish for such a thing; to wish for other people to get "harmed". IRL, do you wish people to get shot in the head if they throw an empty bottle on the side of the road? Following your concept of dictation, that's exactly what you'd wish for. It is against the law, after all, right? If you do not, well... could it mean that there is "tolerance" involved?
One more thing. Before you assume shit about me, I'm the type of player thats actually casual and not hardcore. I actually want "NOTHING" from any of the events I do. Not only that, but more often than not, I will sacrifice myself for many things (sac pull, pull trains away from a group) just so other players can live and continue a fight undisturbed. And I constantly help other players to get their shit done. I do this willingly, Nobody asks me to, and I still want nothing more from the events than having a good time. And just FYI, before you assume more shit, I'm a PS2 player. Much harder to put hacks, bots or cheats through that, dont you agree? Stop pretending you're above everyone else. You have no idea what true honor is. All you are, is a dictator (and a moronic one) who wants others to do only as he wishes.
Decent people do not wish for others to get harmed. By so heartedly wishing that LS to get banned like that for such a minor thing, you are most certainly NOT a decent player.
Their actions against PW has done absolutely nothing to disrupt your gameplay. YOU are the one who has been personally disrespectful toward them by pretty much starting an internet war against them. All they did was playing their game in their corner. Fuck, you arent even on the same server as them. How the hell did they interrupt your gameplay, or enjoyement to the game by logging out their hate on "their" fight against PW?
You play in a MMORPG. This involves many, MANY people (I said "people", not fucking robots all programmed the same way), and all people see things differently. You arent any better than anyone else. You have your opinions, others have different ones. To try to force everyone to do things all the same way, is the same as trying to enslave people.
Dont try to tell me you've never broken any law whatsoever IRL. You most certainly did. Although perhaps not knowingly, but you did. Everybody has. And if you did, following your logic, you deserve jail and worse than that. You deserve to be erased from the planet, you deserve death; never to be heard from again.
This is your logic. This is how you see your perfect world, where if one person does something that is slightly against the law (in some cases we arent even sure about that) he/she needs to be removed. Dictature has been tried before. You know where it led to? To rebellion, and then TO WAR!
You're playing one extreme against the other. There is a just middle in between. You know what it requires for it? Thats right! TOLERANCE! You need to accept that not all laws are absolute. There are shades of grey between white and black.
That said, logging out your hate is not a cheat. SE has proven that fact by congratulating the LS that killed PW. People have personally asked GMs to know if it was a cheat or an exploit. They answered that NO, LOGGING OUT YOUR HATE IS NOT AGAINST THE ToS! Therefore, your comment about them "not being OK with this" (and remember we're only talking about logging out hate here)is only your wishful thinking.
By saying you want that to be reviewed, you simply wish to get people to bend to your way. Theres a word for people like that. I've said it a few times already. It is "Dictator".
You, my friend, have forgotten that FFXI is a "GAME". It is meant to be played for enjoyement, not to be run like a fucking corp. Nothing more. You wish to remove that enjoyement from people that, in no way, has interfered with yours, for no other reason than because you got butt-hurt and jealous of their victory.
If logging out hate was such an issue to you..... why now? Why didnt you say anything 6-7 years ago? Because that's how long people have been doing it. Why now? Why hasnt SE done anything about that before if it was an issue? Something tells me you don't give a damn about people that logs hate. You simply are jealous of Apathy's victory (Grats to them btw, good job guys!).
Do let us know how it turns out with your procedures to get them banned. We are so eager to laugh at you even more!
Aph:
While "Tolerance" leads to "Anarchy", remember that "No Tolerance" leads to "Dictature". I don't know about you, but I'll take anarchy any day over being a slave.
Speaking far more meta than just FFXI, be careful what you ask for, what you get might literally kill you. There are a lot of people like you, but, unless you are literally armed to the teeth and willing to kill at that point, you will be left for dead -- literally.
You see, that's another reason I rail on you guys: This is giving me quite a nice insight as to who you guys really are and what you're willing to do when the chips are down.
Oh, and by the by, Square-Enix has every right to be dictatorial on this game. Don't like it? Go to WoW.
And before you run your mouth with your honor, you should know what that word means. Honor should let you allow others to live their lives, or play their game, as they wish. You are nobody to tell them what to do with their lives or how to play their game. Ban people for logging out their hate? you sir, are fucked in the head to wish for such a thing; to wish for other people to get "harmed". IRL, do you wish people to get shot in the head if they throw an empty bottle on the side of the road? Following your concept of dictation, that's exactly what you'd wish for. It is against the law, after all, right? If you do not, well... could it mean that there is "tolerance" involved?
It could mean that the punishment for that crime is not being shot -- although I do foresee a day in the not-so-distant future, if you get your anarchy, where it would be.
When a person commits illegal actions within FFXI, they harm ALL the players. Including me. That you have no concept of that harm is in no way surprising.
Decent people do not wish for others to get harmed. By so heartedly wishing that LS to get banned like that for such a minor thing, you are most certainly NOT a decent player.
Never said I was "decent". What I do say is that I do wish the cheaters to be harmed, and all who choose them over the integrity of Final Fantasy XI (should any of that exist).
I do wish harm on those who do wrong, for varying degrees of harm is the only deterrent (if any exists at all) against future misconduct.
One more thing. Before you assume shit about me, I'm the type of player thats actually casual and not hardcore. I actually want "NOTHING" from any of the events I do.
Your attitude vis-a-vis this cheating bullshit is the same "more hardcore than thou" bullshit I see all over the comments to this blog and in most of the punks your age in real-life.
And just FYI, before you assume more shit, I'm a PS2 player. Much harder to put hacks, bots or cheats through that, dont you agree? Stop pretending you're above everyone else. You have no idea what true honor is. All you are, is a dictator (and a moronic one) who wants others to do only as he wishes.
Harder? Yes.
Impossible?? We've discussed several already.
Any act of use of a game mechanic in a manner in which the mechanic was not intended is a bannable foul. So it's not impossible, Aph, for you to be on a PS2 and still commit that degree of misconduct.
Logging out because you don't want to die or that logging out is the only way to avoid the attack which will kill you -- and then continuing the fight after logging back in?? That's a foul. Period. Unless you want to argue that logging out has other purposes, and then explain the difference between that and the Salvage dupes.
Their actions against PW has done absolutely nothing to disrupt your gameplay. YOU are the one who has been personally disrespectful toward them by pretty much starting an internet war against them. All they did was playing their game in their corner. Fuck, you arent even on the same server as them. How the hell did they interrupt your gameplay, or enjoyement to the game by logging out their hate on "their" fight against PW?
The same way the Salvage-dupers did -- the same way all you cheaters do: They have compromised the integrity of the game, and they have placed into question its future.
Of course, you don't believe the game has any integrity at all.
And, here's the point: When I broke the law, I GOT LOTS OF JAIL TIME FOR IT. Next question.
(And got more respect from the people inside than the 10 years since...)
This is your logic. This is how you see your perfect world, where if one person does something that is slightly against the law (in some cases we arent even sure about that) he/she needs to be removed. Dictature has been tried before. You know where it led to? To rebellion, and then TO WAR!
Anarchy leads the same two places -- in fact, it can be said that the no confidence situation from the players to Square-Enix is precisely at least the former (rebellion) against the game company, if not the latter (war).
That said, logging out your hate is not a cheat. SE has proven that fact by congratulating the LS that killed PW. People have personally asked GMs to know if it was a cheat or an exploit. They answered that NO, LOGGING OUT YOUR HATE IS NOT AGAINST THE ToS! Therefore, your comment about them "not being OK with this" (and remember we're only talking about logging out hate here)is only your wishful thinking.
I am appealing that GM decision to the rules-makers for the very reason that it is no different an exploit than the Salvage-dupes. NONE. ZERO. NADA. In fact, the logging hate of PW simply exploits a tendency in PW to stop attacking once all hate has cleared from the battle.
Exploit. Exploit. Exploit. By Square-Enix' own words, as quoted in the original post.
If Square-Enix is OK with this, then they have to explain what purposes which game mechanics have -- and (as someone on the LBR Limit Breaking News asked) what is to say that the Salvage-dupes were not a feature (everyone was saying that the STF was going to lay off...)?
By saying you want that to be reviewed, you simply wish to get people to bend to your way. Theres a word for people like that. I've said it a few times already. It is "Dictator".
Exactly how Square-Enix should approach THEIR game. The only other approach is to basically declare a semi-hostile takeover (something I believe the players have been doing for quite some time). Whose game is this?
I'd suggest you read the Terms of Service and come to any other conclusion than this being a dictatorship. All I ask is consistency in the dictatorship, otherwise we start getting to the point of players having the "juice" or "stroke" to do whatever they wish.
You, my friend, have forgotten that FFXI is a "GAME". It is meant to be played for enjoyement, not to be run like a fucking corp. Nothing more. You wish to remove that enjoyement from people that, in no way, has interfered with yours, for no other reason than because you got butt-hurt and jealous of their victory.
And you basically just described why FFXI gets its ass kicked -- it needs to be run like a corp, complete with legal actions against the players when necessary. This is the ONLY way (especially with a player-base not wishing to abide by the rules) the game can survive.
If logging out hate was such an issue to you..... why now? Why didnt you say anything 6-7 years ago? Because that's how long people have been doing it. Why now? Why hasnt SE done anything about that before if it was an issue? Something tells me you don't give a damn about people that logs hate. You simply are jealous of Apathy's victory (Grats to them btw, good job guys!).
Fuck Apathy. Fuck their cheating ways. OK?
Why is it a problem?? Because of the amount of high-level misconduct all over the game. The more I'm aware of it, the more problem I have with it.
Starcade: "Whose game is this?"
You might want to ask SE that question. You might be shocked by their answer.
But here, I'll tell you. IT IS THE PLAYER'S GAME!
Now lets just agree that youre a 39 y/o virgin pretending to be god with a lot of sand in your vagina and cant make a difference between a game and life.
Aph finally gets to the point what I kinda felt most of the flamage here believes, and is one of the reasons that WoW is kicking FFXI's ass to the tune of, at last count, 20-25:1 :
Starcade: "Whose game is this?"
You might want to ask SE that question. You might be shocked by their answer.
But here, I'll tell you. IT IS THE PLAYER'S GAME!
And, at that point, you are left with no alternative to cede all authority to the players at that point. Fuck proprietary property (if the players want to spend $40 for a million gil to some joker in China, they should then be allowed to do so, right??), fuck game balance (if the players want to make claiming any top-level NM a competition between bots, they should then be allowed to do so, right???), and fuck any degree of integrity at that point (if the players want to use any means necessary to drive other players out of the game, they should then be allowed to do so, right????)...
But you finally admitted basically what I kinda felt you were going to have to: That, for your stands to work, Square-Enix has no right to police the players, since the players are too economically important to the process, all the fine print means _NOTHING_, since there's so many cheaters and so few legitimate players that the players have, in effect, seized ownership of the game.
You already know what I feel to be the one recourse, and, after listening to the third part of LBR's Limit Breaking News, I do begin to wonder if that is the end of FFXI, and not that far into the future.
I do plan on asking those kinds of questions...
Now lets just agree that youre a 39 y/o virgin pretending to be god with a lot of sand in your vagina and cant make a difference between a game and life.
Actually, the point you're missing is that it tells me a lot about who you are in real-life, if you choose to basically spit all over any kind of game balance in such a game. If you *just can't operate* without cheats and cracks and hacks and all (and most gamers can't anymore), what does that tell people about you as a person?
Orinna decides to spew some more crap:
You're really an idiot. I'm sorry, I accidentally used said something that obviously made no sense to anyone. I actually thought the same thing after I posted it, but I'd hoped you wouldn't go after me about it..
Given that you said EVERYTHING that made no sense to anyone with one shred of sense, I just used that as the most obvious example of it. But, never mind actually making a coherent argument, it's all about having everyone else on your side, isn't it??
I meant that ps2 players, who only have a ps2.. No computer. As in they don't have access to online gaming websites/guides.. Cannot use them, but you can. Which means if you do, you're obviously cheating. Owait.. wait wait wait.. Allakhazam.com and wiki are both.. BOTH premier sites. What does that mean?
That means that that material has supplanted the gamer guides which was the original means for Square-Enix to disseminate such information. That's all that means.
Well sir, that means that SE is ok with them. Yes, they may give an unfair advantage, but.. SE doesn't care, just as SE doesn't give a fuck about how this particular PW was defeated.
Then they don't give a fuck about their Terms of Service either (especially in the latter case), leaving no option but for the players to start believing that the Terms have been made meaningless, except when capriciously "enforced" just as a pissing contest between Square-Enix and the player base.
I have to add one caveat after the last set of discussions I've listened to from the LBN: Unless Square-Enix openly wants to destroy FFXI (and there is some speculation as to whether they might), that is not a place they want to go.
They aren't going to change how they feel.. If you haven't noticed, they are a multi million dollar company..
With a game that is failing in the marketplace to the one juggernaut out there. Their stock price is about the lowest it's been in five years... They are losing the confidence of the marketplace and the market. Ever consider why?
As such, they have many many many people making decisions. Many of those people likely watched that fight. GMs have been known to do so.. So why not developers/etc?
By that same argument, no one should've been punished (in fact, many should have been praised) for the Salvage dupes. Try again -- your argument holds no water.
YOU NEED TO SHUT UP.
YOU NEED TO WAKE UP. Unless you are viewing FFXI as no more than a fantastical version of Second Life, your stands tells people you don't care about anyone else but yourself and your small circle of friends.
You're the biggest moron I have ever come in contact with.. (I can't believe I'm about to use this...).. Stop fucking QQing you whiny bitch. Go play WoW and ride around on your epic level flying mount that also has.. oh fuck it. I don't care.
Why don't you go fucking play WoW? I shouldn't have to be the one who leaves for all the whiny bitches and piss-ants who refuse to understand that they arent the center of Vana'diel.
I mean, seriously... You really think you're the shit.
Anyway. I'm done here. I made the realization that you're an attention seeking piece of shit, and giving you what you want.. which is ATTENTION, only means more trash spewing out of your mouth.
If I wanted attention, it wouldn't simply be from a bunch of cheating piss-ants like you.
If I want attention, I want Square-Enix' ear to wake them up (if they haven't been already) to what kind of pieces of crap are playing their game.
Note: I said "their game". To a lot of you, that's a weird concept. As a result, the very future of the game is in doubt.
I like when little noobish shit heads try to decide they're God of the internet. It's a game dip shit.
And I expect it's rules enforced -- with an iron fist if necessary. Otherwise, shut the damn game down, for there's no point in continuing it.
Maybe you should worry a little more about real life,
Actually, I do. So much so that I need Vana'diel not to start literally getting on the evening news for taking punks and busting their heads into the wall.
(Orinna obviously doesn't read The Automatic Earth... People like you are one of the reasons we are so completely screwed as a culture, economy, currency, society, and world.)
based on what you said, its either SE has to follow your way, or they need to shut down the game?
Starcade: "It could mean that the punishment for that crime is not being shot -- although I do foresee a day in the not-so-distant future, if you get your anarchy, where it would be."
You are contradicting yourself. You want those players to be completly removed from the game, as someone is completly removed (shot in the head) IRL for minor infractions (which, SE has said and GMs confirmed, logging hate isnt one).
I didnt say SE cant police the game and its players. What I and everyone else in the world said, is that the logging out hate is a grey area. You just cant seem to get that through your head. If we compare to IRL, you're saying that someone needs to be sentenced to jail for life, or death for throwing a paper on the walkway. You also claim that action to be on the same level as breaking through a bank. Both are against the law, arent they?
The comparisons are as such. Logging out hate in FFXI has about the same impact to the game as a whole than throwing a paper on a walkway IRL. You wish those players to be completly removed from the game, therefore, you wish a person to be removed from IRL if he/she throws a paper away. You want the same punishment to be exacted for 2 completly uncomparable and different issues.
You're more of a moron than i thought you were. Youre also just a fanatic.
Going back to the anarchy/dictatorship debate, Ill say again Id much prefered to live my life armed to the teeth ready to take out any intruders to my bubble while keeping my thoughts, my decisions and my actions my own to make, than to live as a mindless slave with never any choices in any matters, living in a prison. While I may get killed faster in a world of anarchy, I wouldnt much care for life as a caged bird.
Once again, both have their problems. These are 2 extremes facing off. People in general dont want to be overrun by cheaters and what not in the game, but they also want freedom to do as they choose while playing the game. There is a price to pay for freedom. That price is "tolerance of what goes on around you." Duping armor directly affected the game balance. People have been punished for it. Logging out hate does nothing to harm the game in any way. No punishment is needed against those players, for they have broken no rule.
You didnt answer my question btw. Why this ranting now and not 5-6 years ago? Dont avoid the question with your pretty comments this time. I want a direct answer from you to this question. "Why NOW?"
As far as FFXI to continue living, of course FFXI will die eventually. Everything and everyone dies. "Death" is Life's one great certainty.
Let us know how it goes with the STF. Since you have such a strong sense of "honor", you can't possibly back out of that promise can you? Even if your procedures turn to shit, and SE publicly laughs at you, you do have to let us know, with as many details as you usually give in every one of your comments. It is a promise you made. Honorable people do not break promises.
I will so enjoy your humiliation.
PS.: I didnt hear you deny you were a 39years old angry virgin. This indeed explains a lot.
Aph: "My way" is the stated rules of the game, as quoted by Square-Enix. It isn't a capricious "my way" which has been just conjured up out of thin air.
The use of game mechanics in ways unintended gains an unfair game advantage and is bannable. That's in their own words and in their own policies. If you can't live with that fact, that's not my problem.
The penalty for such minor violations can be removal from the game. If the penalty for minor violations of the law was to be shot and killed, then that would be the expectation. That you can't see that continues to expose you and your belief systems. (Not that they aren't far too common these days...)
I didnt say SE cant police the game and its players. What I and everyone else in the world said, is that the logging out hate is a grey area. You just cant seem to get that through your head. If we compare to IRL, you're saying that someone needs to be sentenced to jail for life, or death for throwing a paper on the walkway. You also claim that action to be on the same level as breaking through a bank. Both are against the law, arent they?
Logging hate is not a grey area unless you openly wish to charge that there is another purpose to logging out of the game other than to leave the game (for whatever RL purpose you are leaving the game). Logging out for ANY in-game purpose which gains an advantage is illegal and bannable, under Square-Enix' own rules.
If they choose to controvert that, then it leaves all the rules open to interpretation that they are only being enforced (and to whom) at Square-Enix' whim. At that point, there is no game left. The game would, effectively, be rigged to those players with the "stroke" and "juice" to hack, exploit, and cheat while Square-Enix deliberately turns a blind eye.
The comparisons are as such. Logging out hate in FFXI has about the same impact to the game as a whole than throwing a paper on a walkway IRL. You wish those players to be completly removed from the game, therefore, you wish a person to be removed from IRL if he/she throws a paper away. You want the same punishment to be exacted for 2 completly uncomparable and different issues.
Oh come on... You can't be that obtuse. It is already demonstratable that the only capacity for thought by the players is that logging hate is the ONLY way to avoid Pandemonium Warden's Astral Flow. That means it's the only way to win the fight, unless you have multiple alliances ready to shuffle into the fight. We've gone over, a number of times, the use of logging hate to avoid an otherwise-unavoidable death because the players choose to cheat because they are too lazy to take (and recover) the XP hit. They are creating unfair game advantage and must be examined as such.
And, on top of that, your "argument" would only be true in such cultures where such littering is punishable by death. If there IS a penalty for such an act, it needs to be enforced or taken off the books, though (whatever that penalty might be).
Going back to the anarchy/dictatorship debate, Ill say again Id much prefered to live my life armed to the teeth ready to take out any intruders to my bubble while keeping my thoughts, my decisions and my actions my own to make, than to live as a mindless slave with never any choices in any matters, living in a prison. While I may get killed faster in a world of anarchy, I wouldnt much care for life as a caged bird.
Hint #1: This game is a dictatorship. It has to be to retain order. Otherwise, you would end up with why we don't have true (but only, supposedly, "representative") democracy -- you'd have anarchy by rule of the masses.
Hint #2: Prepare to start shooting -- real soon now. And I say that because I do examine real-life and I'm seeing what's about to go down.
People in general dont want to be overrun by cheaters and what not in the game, but they also want freedom to do as they choose while playing the game. There is a price to pay for freedom. That price is "tolerance of what goes on around you." Duping armor directly affected the game balance. People have been punished for it. Logging out hate does nothing to harm the game in any way. No punishment is needed against those players, for they have broken no rule.
The statement you make is false. Many of the highest "victories" in this game (as evidenced by many of the comments here), including Apathy's "win", are a direct result of logging hate -- hence, an unfair advantage has been gained (not only in gaining the "win", but the spoils of it), and it needs to be re-examined. That disrupts game balance. You seem to continually forget that Square-Enix is the sole arbiter of game balance, and their drop rates and victory conditions are absolute law. One of those conditions is not, under any circumstance, to use game mechanics outside their intended use. So either argue that logging out actually has other uses than leaving the game, or admit you're wrong.
Why now? I answered your question already. Because it is becoming apparent how much you cheating assholes are running over the game. You (collective) have been keeping that a nice little secret for far too long.
I don't plan to back out on that promise. I intend to complete the LBR LBN series, and then the letter gets written -- and posted when it's sent. I'll even tell you who it got sent to. Sage Sundi is one real possibility. I have no intention of backing out on that. None at all. You think otherwise? Of course you do.
So basically all life is is a matter of getting laid. That's what you're telling me.
#1 No law, not even God's laws, is absolute. If you believe otherwise, you are a fool.
#2How many times must we tell you that "SE HAS ALREADY CONFIRMED THAT LOGGING OUT IS NOT A CHEAT NOR AN EXPLOIT"? No one kept this a secret. Its been widely known and praticed ever since FFXI's dawn of time. Do you honestly believe SE wasnt aware of this practice? They knew of it, and they are OK with it. Dont like it? Go play WoW.
#3 Life isnt just about getting laid. Its about experiencing new things. Getting laid just so happens to be one of the greatest ones of those things. It also opens up your insight on many things. You should try it someday, although, with your high and maighty attitude and your need to control everything around you, the odds are that it'll never happen, unless you pay a whore. But no women will willingly be your slave and abide to all your rules. Part of me feels pity for you, truly.
#1: Then I guess I'm a fool, because if God's law is not the absolute, what is? (Even absent all other considerations about FFXI...)
You forget, and you choose to forget: This is not, and has never been, a democratic game (small "d"). This is a dictatorship, and has to be to maintain any degree of order. Otherwise, when it all breaks down, as it is in the process of doing (in FFXI as in real life), anarchy is the only result.
#2: And how many times have I told you:
a) That that ruling is completely inconsistent with the stated Terms of Service, and completely inconsistent with the Salvage bannings, AND opens Square-Enix to charges of preferential treatment and conduct...
and b) That I am appealing that ruling beyond the GM level to the Special Task Force.
If logging hate is legal, so is the Salvage-dupe. It's the same -- damn -- thing. The only other alternatives are two: Square-Enix needs to state which game mechanics have what legal functions, or they need to abrogate the Terms of Service and let anarchy reign.
And, AGAIN, Square-Enix was apparently aware of the Salvage exploit for much of the 18 months it was used, but only when it came to the attention of the Special Task Force in a way which could further embarrass Square-Enix was anything done. So your arguments hold absolutely no water here.
#3: Then stop talking about life like it is all about getting laid. It makes you sound even more like an idiot.
Starcade:"#3: Then stop talking about life like it is all about getting laid."
k
but wait!
Aph:"#3 Life isnt just about getting laid. Its about experiencing new things."
oh snap!
This clearly shows that you dont even read right. Therefore, any further discussion with you is pointless. Have fun with trying to start a war with the FFXI devs. The rest of us will just continue to log out hate, and keep having "fun" in the game. Isnt entertainment the SOLE purpose of a game? Go read the definitions of the words "fun" "game" and "entertainment".
And stop talking like you know the rules better than the GMs, direct representatives of SE.
I was sarcastic twice.. and he didn't get it at all. Ugh.
Two things:
1: If the game derails to the point of player-want-player-get, then you have something along the lines of WoW. Its great for casuals, but you have this cycle of the Devs out doing the gear you fought so hard for.
This is what I believe he means by "game integrity". if 11 were like WoW many more people would play, but it wouldnt be as deep as we know it to be.
2. I dont think the full issue is really logging out here, I think its (to borrow a quote from Killing Ifrit: ""I am disapointed this is what the end game boss fights are boiling down too. Off handed tactics, instead of solidly developed encounters that are both fun and challenging using the skill & abilitys that SE provided us, not the method of which we leave the game for the evening.""
Ask yourself, is there any other way to avoid or even take the damage from this boss, is it (by game limits) feasible? I dont know the full details, but what is it, 6 astral flows? coupled with the fact that the AoE range for mobs is much wider than players.
I mean to parallel this with WoW, there is a boss who removes the gravity for a portion of the fight and players have to "swim" back down in the right amount of time to avoid falling damage when the gravity gets turned back on. Through all this, the boss is still beat-able.
The above is an example, not a cry for more to play wow.
Actually, given what I've been reading about the Salvage dupes and how long they were known, I think one could say that there are many people who know the rules better than the GMs, or at least decide they're going to apply them as such.
Kennohikaru:
Your first point is one of the reasons that the discussion as to whether Square-Enix really wants to continue FFXI (as opposed to full-timing Rapture and starting that up) is, actually quite prescient and relevant. One really has to wonder if the writing is not on the wall that Square-Enix is getting told, five by five, that the player-base wants to be 1337, pwn everything, all-powerful, and not care one bit about anything other than that. FFXI is not an economically viable game in those environments. It's just not.
Your second point is almost right. Remember what I quoted in the original post here: Use of game mechanics in ways that the game mechanic was not intended for create illegal game advantage and can result in bannage. Unless they want to argue there is another purpose in logging your character out of the game than that character leaving the game, then I have a serious foul call on that because of what you said: End-game fights have come down to tactics illegal under the Terms of Service and have greatly compromised the game balance and the ability of players to believe that playing by the rules actually doesn't hamstring you to the point that you might as well leave FFXI to the cheating "elites"...
And the more I read and hear about it, the less faith I have in FFXI. Read (again, if you have before) what I assert from what I heard about 90 minutes into the LBR LBN report from this week -- there is now some question whether Square-Enix even cares enough to continue FFXI at this point.
I didn't take what you said as a call for more people to play World of Warcraft, but the real question is there: Is there a means for which the players to defeat the mobs which does not break the Terms of Service? And what would it say to them about Square-Enix if there were not??
Starcade:"Actually, given what I've been reading about the Salvage dupes and how long they were known, I think...."
Stop right there! You are not allowed to think anymore. You "think" logging out hate is a bannable offense. You "think" you know how to run SE better than they do. You "think" you know their rules better than them. You "think" you're all truth and absolute, you "think" but here's news for you. SE DOESNT THINK SO!
If you have such an issue with how people play this game, why the fuck are you still playing?
One more thing
Starcade:"Use of game mechanics in ways that the game mechanic was not intended for create illegal game advantage and can result in bannage."
This is a quote from your last post. Doing something illegal "can" be bannable. It can. it CAN! But it wont necessarily. It depends on the severity of the act, and trust me, logging out hate is soooooooooooo very far from being severe. And just because you demand that those people get banned, doesnt mean it will happen. If they do that, then SE, to be fair, needs to ban the "ENTIRE POPULATION OF FFXI", because EVERYBODY HAS DONE IT! (perhaps except the 1 or 2 pricks like you)It wont happen, and that is a fact. No matter what you do or say or what e-mail you send to who, this is a losing battle you're fighting. All you will accomplish is further embarassing yourself, which, quite frankly, i dont mind that.
Aph: Well, if you're the dictator, then I wouldn't be allowed to think. You may not want me to be allowed to think because I don't kiss your ass.
The facts are out there: Square-Enix knew of the Salvage problems and didn't do anything until someone blew the whistle outside FFXI. It seems that the only workable tactic to get Square-Enix to do anything is to embarrass Square-Enix and limit its ability to market new players.
Frankly, listen to the LBR LBN, and tell me there aren't a *LOT* of people who think that Square-Enix could do a far better job (maybe in different directions than I would like to see them go) than they are doing now. Some of them might now be former Japanese stockholders in the company too.
Yes, I think they can do a better job, _by enforcing their damn rules_. Failure to do so ends this game.
And, as far as your "everyone has done it" motif, my position from earlier stands: If that's the case, poof goes FFXI right god-damned now. Do it. Pull -- the -- plug. It's a sham game under that scenario, because Square-Enix has no right to control its proprietary property (it has no right to enforce the rules, because doing so, by your statement and my position, ends FFXI!).
You may be right that such a high percentage of players cheat that the game would be unsustainable under the Terms of Service. Then Square-Enix needs to pull the plug -- and, if you listened to the LBR LBN, you'd come to the same question I did: Is that their eventual intention?
They've played the card, now, that they intend to take more control of the game. That means banning the logging-haters and all that -- otherwise, the question comes up as to who is running the game and who actually has the ability to exploit and controvert the ToS?
I think everybody here is forgotting that logging out in PW fight was only preventive, because they were able to avoid Astral Flaw. A rdm pulled all the lamps and run away, they avoided all the Astral Flaws in this way. Simply, they logged out because if the rdm failed and died, at least they saved the 5 min. It was not for the exp (a lot of them lost like 15-20k exp in this fight), simply a time matter. And, by the way, the rdm never failed.
Anyway, comparing the salvage dupes with logging out it's really idiotic. Salvage dupes was clearly a bug. Logging out it's only something that you think it's against ToS, but just because you think so, it doesn't mean it's true. SE never did anything for like 7 years (knowing this matters), GM said it was ok and the fight was praised. I know you will never understand and I know you will continue your useless crusade against logging out and I don't say to stop it, it's really fun to read you and you have the right to contact the STF, but it's just useless, be sure about that. You can answer that even for salvage dupes everybody said it was useless, but that was clearly cheating. The assumption that logging out is only to exit the game could be someway logic, but it's not really true. Because it's clearly used to escape death, GM knows it, SE knows it and you knows it. Everybody does it. And the assumption that the game will start going near anarchy and die because of people logging out to save 2k exp it's foolish. I mean, just because everybody doesn't want to lose 30 min of their life to solo 2k (yes, not every job can tp party), that doesn't mean they are cheating or they are going against the ToS. If you have the time/will to exp again when you die, good for you, but dying and losing 2k just to follow some made up rule, it can be honorable from your point of view, but I think it's pretty stupid. And I can assure you that I'm really honorable when I play, I never cheated or did something against the rules. But I logged out to save 30 min or my life, yes. Because I often solo for quest/safe exp/explore/who cares. And if I died every time I aggroed something, I would have lost entire days to get back my exp. It would have been more honorable for you, especially knowing that it's not clearly against the rules? When and if you someway will demonstrate that it's really cheating or against ToS, I'll stop doing so. But it isn't. There is nothing you can say. Apart asking the STF, and be told that it's not cheating. I'll wait for that. But it's really stupid to think that the game will die for this. Really. There are a lot of problems in FF11. The main point is that there are less new player, because this game takes away too much time. It's so easy to see. I think that FF11 it's really better than WOW in a lot of things, but the fact that WOW is so much easier to play for casual players it's evident. If you want to exp in FF11 you need at least 3 hours. If you want to buy some low level equipment, with this economy, it's nearly impossible for new players, you need to farm for too much time. Time that not everybody have. If you want to save this game, you have to find new players and forcing them to die everytimes they aggro it's not useful for your cause. What's next? You can't zone mobs? Because the meaning of zoning it's cleary to change area, not for escaping aggro. So it's against ToS? It would be bannable by your reasoning. And like Orinna said, by your reasoning, Alla, FFwiki and every internet websites could be against ToS, because it's clearly an advantage for you, I know a lot of people that play with PS2 and can't read any websites on internet. And I know a lot of people that can read websites and decides not to, to enjoy more the game, I think that's a lot more honorable that dying instead of logging out to save 2k exp.
And about all of your reasoning about honour and moral in this game. A lot of people doesn't have any. And a lot of people has.
Like in the real world. You have to accept this fact. There will be cheaters and there will be honest players. And if you want to fight cheaters, become a GM, because right now you can't. Every players have the same rights, so you're not worst nor better than everybody else.
Then you fuckers win. It's that simple. If it were as simple as leave the game and not have all you guys laughing that you sent another person off the game who isn't as hardcore, me-first, and 1337 as thou, I'd already be playing WoW, because, frankly, this game, by all measures, appears to be unsavably corrupted with a player base which isn't worth maintaining.
I think this is really immoral and disonhorable, especially to people that doesn't have a lot of money. You continue to play just for your stupid crusade for integrity against immorality, but you are the first to be immoral. Cotinue to pay to play this game just to piss off other people. But you seem to have forgotten that this is a play and it's supposed to be played to enjoy it. You're trying to start a useless war against everybody else because you think you are superior. Maybe this is against ToS.
Oh, and before you can say it, I know my english isn't good, my bad, I know it, but I'm not english. And yes, I edited 3 times :/
lmao
A lot of things I will tolerate -- stealing my blog "identity" and trying post in my name is not one of them. (I've deleted, now, two posts in this history of this blog -- the other is one of the other things I will not tolerate here: adspam.)
Starcade: "A lot of things I will tolerate..."
Wrong. You do not tolerate anything that isnt precisely what you think. You've proven that fact times and again in the last few days here.
BTW, Ive asked GM tonight about this logging out thing youre rambling about. Once more, he told me that, unless the Logout button is used in some way to cause an infraction at the same level such as MPKing others and directly harm other players online, it is in no way a violation of the ToS to use it, be it for leaving the game, or logging your hate. It is much less a bannable offense.
I know, I know... he's just a GM and doesnt know anything, right? because only the omgSTF knows shit about this game! D=
So yea, keep ranting and quoting everyone of our posts here in a lame attempt to get your point accross. The fact is, you wont win. You cannot win. Not with an argument as pitiful as yours. SE wont shut down their monthly multi-million in earning game for your lame ass principles. The fact that you really believe you can change the world by sending a couple e-mails to them with your QQing in it is well beyond the laughing point. I dont think anyone on earth would believe someone can be that retarded. "Retarded" being a nice term in your case. I dont know who you think you are, but you arent some kind of internet holy knight.
Keep being pissed off because you think rules arent being enforced. That is your problem alone, and nothing you do will ever have the slightest impact.
Also, when you say that SE needs to shut down the game because rules are omgbroken (/laugh) and as such, is no longer a game, how is it no longer a game? What is the point of a game? Why do people play a game?
Since you've obviously forgotten, I'll tell you. You play a game for "FUN" and "ENTERTAINMENT"
And as long as the playerbase still has "FUN", it is still a "GAME", rules broken/changed or not. If the game is more fun for people that breaks rules, good for them. As long as it doesnt get in my way, or prevents me from making my own accomplishments on the game, such as a bot or poshacks would, I could care less how a group of people decide to fight a monster they "WORKED FOR WEEKS/MONTHS JUST TO MAKE IT APPEAR".
If you personally no longer have fun, why do you still play? If you dont have fun anymore, I can understand that its no longer a game for you. But heres news for you. It still is a game for over 500k people on earth.
K this would be my last post here. Im obviously dealing with a fanatic moron here.
PS: Go meet women and experience real life a little. It might do you some good.
What an original way to prove your point...
They tried something, it worked, they won, move on.
OK, now that I've done that, there is one more comment that I have to respond to, Aph's latest:
Wrong. You do not tolerate anything that isnt precisely what you think. You've proven that fact times and again in the last few days here.
You think I wrote Square-Enix' rules? That's the only way I could see your argument holding water.
Unless Square-Enix wants to declare which game mechanics are to be used in which manners, specifically, then common sense would appear to indicate that logging out for the specific purpose of avoiding hate or death is illegal and outside Q12652.
You completely fail to understand that there is only ONE PURPOSE to logging out -- actually leaving the game. Any more purpose than that had better start being made explicit unless you want to get to the point that Square-Enix is allowing certain players to get away with whatever they want (a place they dare not go if they want there to be a future to this game).
BTW, Ive asked GM tonight about this logging out thing youre rambling about. Once more, he told me that, unless the Logout button is used in some way to cause an infraction at the same level such as MPKing others and directly harm other players online, it is in no way a violation of the ToS to use it, be it for leaving the game, or logging your hate. It is much less a bannable offense.
Which is why the GM's need an education as to Q12652, since you don't realize that these kinds of acts do directly harm other players online -- they harm ALL other players online since they now put the motives of Square-Enix into grave question, as well as to which exploits they elect to allow and which they do not.
This is clear violation of Q12652, and, as someone else proposed, if it's the only way to kill PW, then Square-Enix has got a larger problem on their hands. Bluntly, if I were one of the Salvage-dupe banned, I'd have a lawyer taking a long look at the Terms of Service, and wondering if Square-Enix is acting upon that contract in good faith.
(You can get away with a lot in a contract, as long as you act in good faith.)
I have some question as to whether Square-Enix is acting in good faith on their end of the contract.
So yea, keep ranting and quoting everyone of our posts here in a lame attempt to get your point accross. The fact is, you wont win. You cannot win. Not with an argument as pitiful as yours. SE wont shut down their monthly multi-million in earning game for your lame ass principles. The fact that you really believe you can change the world by sending a couple e-mails to them with your QQing in it is well beyond the laughing point. I dont think anyone on earth would believe someone can be that retarded. "Retarded" being a nice term in your case. I dont know who you think you are, but you arent some kind of internet holy knight.
They may shut the game down, though, if they really don't give a shit about continuing it -- and I can tell you that there are many high-level players which have begun to question whether Square-Enix does wish to continue FFXI or not.
Don't take my word for this -- listen to Sonomaa about 90 minutes into the LBR LM17 LBN. Listen to the arguments that were starting on the BluGartr LS which got so strong that the subject almost had to be changed.
The fact is, if I can't "change the world" with making my concerns known and demanding change, then why am I following the rules in the first place, at all? If Square-Enix does not care enough about the rules to enforce them, why am I paying them to play, at all??
And, frankly, they've already said, in response to the "misconduct", that they want the player community to report to them their concerns in matters of players misconduct.
So your arguments fail again, and again, and again...
How'd you like me to start hacking your game? How'd you like me to go RMT on your ass?? How'd you like me to basically cheat to pwn everything and the like???
You'd like that, because that's how you "roll". That isn't how I "roll". There isn't going to be a Final Fantasy XI left if you guys basically win out on this.
You damned good and right I'm a fanatic. I care enough about the future of endeavors I put good money of mine into to maintain. You don't like that? You want me to leave that badly? That'll be $1,000. Cash.
I know i said it was gonna be my last post, but jsut couldnt resist. Your attitude is too hilarious.
You can call GMs, STFs all you want. I never said you couldnt. You are granted that right. It doesnt mean they'll change everything to fit your views tho lol.
You keep asking where it is written in the ToS that we can use the Logout button to escape aggro, or to lose enmity. Its not written anywhere specifically. Then again, where is it written "specifically" that we cant do it? All you go with, is your own personal assumption of what the rules are. Your own interpretation of them.
Why do you pay them to play at all? Thats for you to answer. As for the rest of us, we hardly care whether you stay or leave. If you leave, well thats one prick gone. If you stay, then I believe we can continue to laugh at you and it keeps us entertained.
And a big LOL at you thinking GMs need a lecture from your part. LOL
You mentionned the round table discussion. Ive listenned to it. True, FFXI may die. As Ive said before, everything dies eventually. It wont be because of your holy crusade tho lol. But back to the point. There was also something else they mentionned in the discussion. Square-Enix is, first and foremost, a Business. Using your logic, SE would need, to be fair with everyone, to ban the "ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF FFXI" because "EVERYONE" (except you i guess) has logged out to escape aggro at least once in their career.
Now that is hardly good for business is it?
Its already known that PW was poorly designed. We all know that we "shouldnt" have to use the logout to win that fight. However, at this time, it is the only way to possibly win that fight. (lol at your "what you cant run like hell to escape astral flow????" lolololol)
You remind me of Gollum from LotR. Poor little sad and lonely creature obsessed with only one thing. Youll most likely end up like him. =/
Yea I pity you.
K now im done for real xD
Aph: Done until the next time I piss you off, eh?
(Don't worry -- common on the Net, happens to me too...)
Let's just say that some news I got today (thanks to Kimiko) appears to indicate that Square-Enix no longer cares about FFXI, and is fully intending to scuttle it in the near- to middle-term future.
All I can say (and I will say it in my next post) is that they should just pull the plug on FFXI now before they alienate any more potential customers for Rapture, at that point.
If they really don't care about enforcing the rules, then there is no game. It becomes simply a matter of who can cheat with the consent of the most players, and it doesn't really matter to anybody what terms people are supposed to play by.
The point I am trying to make is that the Terms of Service specifically forbid any action inconsistent with the normal means of game play of any game mechanic. Any action. So, if logging out to avoid hate or certain death is legal, that becomes a normal means of game play for logging out.
At that point, explain to me the Salvage bannings again...
Please. I'd probably have to pay you two drinks worth to hear this comedy, but I'm all ears to it.
So, in fact, in the Terms of Service, is it implicitly written as forbidden to log to avoid hate. And if that's not the case, then Square-Enix (should it wish to continue the game at all, even short-term) needs to come out and explicitly state which exploits are allowed and which are not, because it's present Terms of Service (at least that one, and probably others) are null and void.
Logging to avoid hate is *NOT* a "normal means of game play" of logging out. Period. Nothing you say can change that.
But if Square-Enix has decided, in the name of abandoning Final Fantasy XI, not to care anymore, then why should they matter if I don't?
In my honest opinion, you'd probably think all of us who don't like people stomping all over the game without a care in the world (the real one _or_ Vana'diel) are all pricks. Fine. Understand that being that degree of a prick is the only reason (and that goes *double* if what I read on JP Button today is true) I still play FFXI.
Eventually, I am sure that I will have to be asked to leave, simply because of the fact that I'm going to be such a pain in the ass that it is going to damage your (collective "you") game experience. Gamers play to cheat the system. And you fuckers have probably successfully killed Final Fantasy XI.
In fact, one could even go so far as to say that their future business plans are, essentially, to ban all the FFXI players, because it's clear they may have no interest in a long-term future for Vana'diel.
I'd just wish they pull the plug now before you guys turn this game into absolute Hell, in that case.
If you can't come up with a way to win the fight (any fight) within the Terms of Service, then DO NOT GO INTO THAT FIGHT. Is it that difficult for you to understand?
I can understand having a hypothesis on it...
"(proven by that you believe there is another legitimate purpose to logging out from the game than exiting FFXI)"
Using this logic, then every player with a mule should be banned? Because we all know that having extra gear stored on another character is an exploit.
Starcade, an exploit was Salvage duping, making 3x the amount of treasure appear is cheating. Logging out has never ever been cheating. You say logging out was meant to leave XI, what about people that log out just so there is no aggro while they're afk? Is that an exploit? No, it's called saving yourself, doing this on PW is no different than a creative approach to defeating a NM. Square-Enix and the STF are both aware of this victory, if they didn't like it they would've banned the people involved.
So do the rest of the world a favor, and quit bitching how you follow the rules and everyone else doesn't and stop acting like you're the only person right in this argument. Your condescending attitude only shows who you really are, a fucking idiot who tries to be better than everyone else.
Apathy of Remora defeated PW, they were accepted by the creators themselves as a victor over this NM, in a very creative method.
End of story, you go back to farming beehive chips and maybe you'll be lucky if you get a Beestinger off of Stinging Sophie too.
P.S: Hope you enjoy FFXI, as you would've been liked more if your mouth was shut.
~Flagg, of Midgard
Any action taken outside the mechanics of regular game use is cheating -- that's in the rules. That's what makes the Salvage dupes a defensible bannage on their own. Taken in tandem with Apathy's "win", however, now I'm not so sure the bannings are so defensible.
The point I've been making is that any mechanism to subvert the normal use of game mechanics is illegal and bannable, and any "wins" directly attributable to that should be wiped out as illegal, not just illegitimate.
Apathy of Remora should be disqualified from their "victory", and from Final Fantasy XI.
All this arguing over an online video game is pretty pathetic. Do you really pay $12+ a month just so you can pick fights with people you don't even know? Honestly, it makes no sense to stress over a video game.
You say you don't want the player base to wonder what SE considers an exploit and what it doesn't (not going to quote exactly because it's late and I just plain don't feel like it) but from what I've read it appears most people don't really care. Obviously, some like yourself, do. I'm just pointing out that a rather large amount, including myself, don't care about how Apathy won the fight. I'm not some end-game elitest. Hell, I don't even do endgame anymore because I hate the way the stuff is run 90% of the time and how people treat it like it's all about the gear no matter how you get it, including stepping on others to achieve it. I've done sky, sea, limbus and dynamis. Once I saw how shitty all of the above was I just kinda gave up on bothering with salvage, HNMs, etc. Only thing I do now is Dynamis, and not for gear (because I have a wait in line anyway) but because I enjoy the linkshell itself for once.
I would like to say that I have used the logging out method as a way to survive, mainly on my black mage. Simply sleep the mob, or aggro depending on the situation, and log out. When I log back in I'm still alive, no exp is lost, and I go about my day. It's as simple as that. And before you say I'm cheating so I don't lose exp, no. I'd just rather not waste my time. I could care less about losing some data over the internet. I find my time, however, to be much more precious.
One last thing. I just (yes just, as I said it's late) noticed you're from Leviathan. If you'd rather discuss this one on one in a civil manner (no flaming please, I'd prefer not to get insults thrown at me when I'm a fairly well educated woman) you can send me a /tell. Daquiri of Leviathan, I'm sure you may have seen me around at some point, and if not it's nice to meet another person of Leviathan, whether we agree or disagree on this subject. :)
silentmorning: Do they really pay $12 a month to impose their no-rules I-don't-give-a-damn-about-anything-except-that-I'm-more-leet-than-you environment on me (and whatever other few people are still trying to be legitimate)?
I'm not saying that your side of the coin is wrong, but that's the other side of that coin. Much of what I have enjoyed over the last few years (and this goes far beyond FFXI) has been taken from me by a bunch of me-first no-rules punks for whom the only recourse is a good punch in the mouth, followed quickly by about ten more...
You say you don't want the player base to wonder what SE considers an exploit and what it doesn't (not going to quote exactly because it's late and I just plain don't feel like it) but from what I've read it appears most people don't really care. Obviously, some like yourself, do. I'm just pointing out that a rather large amount, including myself, don't care about how Apathy won the fight.
The reason why a lot of people don't care is because they want a no-rules cheater environment where NOBODY CARES. Nobody cares if you used a claim-bot to grab that NM. Nobody cares if you hacked the code (or equivalent exploit) to dupe materials. Most of the people I've talked to believe Square-Enix is openly mocking them with the drop rates of some of these zones, and adjust them further downward for Square-Enix' own entertainment.
What kind of game is that??
I'm not some end-game elitest. Hell, I don't even do endgame anymore because I hate the way the stuff is run 90% of the time and how people treat it like it's all about the gear no matter how you get it, including stepping on others to achieve it.
That's part of the environment I speak of, and why I get so pissed off about it. The player base has killed Final Fantasy XI because of this. Who is going to want to come on a game where it's all about little boys and girls in their little cliques and the like?
That's all FFXI is right now.
I would like to say that I have used the logging out method as a way to survive, mainly on my black mage. Simply sleep the mob, or aggro depending on the situation, and log out. When I log back in I'm still alive, no exp is lost, and I go about my day. It's as simple as that. And before you say I'm cheating so I don't lose exp, no. I'd just rather not waste my time. I could care less about losing some data over the internet. I find my time, however, to be much more precious.
... than playing the game legitimately, I see. Here's a thought for all you guys: Cast Sleep and then _RUN_!!!
What happened to zoning out?? Yeah, I'm afraid I have to basically say that you cheated, yes. Logging out is not meant to gain any advantage within the game.
Zoning out is clearly against the ToS. Because, of course, The only purpose for zoning out is to change area, not to escape from a monster. Therefore, you break the rules if you do so you cheap punk-ass cheater!!!!
Then get me banned. Now.
I will as soon as you get me banned for logging out hate.
How is that letter coming along?
Ah, the letter...
Didn't mention it.
Letter's coming along good. Was almost finished before the initial reports from Japan came out -- once it's done, I can figure out who I can send it to, and it's sent, it goes here.
By the by, why wait, bitch? Seriously: Why wait? Every day I'm on this game now chafes your hide.
wow people really need to be so bitter? why does anyone even care? aboutt something so small as logging at for whatever reason especially for those blm's out there that do it to save there life. and with the PW kill how did there victory effect you? its not like they can bot the claim they worked for the pop item, so what makes you bitter? i havent done many things as a linkshell event that we needed to logout hate but for silly little things like in a small group or solo blm, if we can sleep a mob and log out we are cheaters, im supposed to be noble to a game and run accros a map to zone out, and what for? so i can sleep well at night?
have fun with the letter... it will change nothing!
fata: Maybe they aren't entitled to "save their life" and have to take the XP hit. Or is that the only way a Black Mage can get to 75 in this game is to use game mechanics illegally in ways not intended?
Hey, if I have to step out and take care of some business in the apartment, I may not be entitled to "save my life" by breaking the rules. Why should you or anyone else?
wow star, you really take this game that seriously? and who ever said we arent entitled to log out to escape death? not once has any one said to me
"hey ummm listen thats kinda against the rules your supposed to sick it up and die"
I remember soloing in a few spots on blm mainly the pso'xja spot (or how ever you spell it) where if something went wrong there is absolutly no way to zone. So in this situation what would you sudjest? and dont say suck it up and die cause given the situation you wouldnt be so noble.
this entire thing is a waste of time. im pretty sure something as little as being able to log out for saftey is what keeps ppl happy and content with the game among other things. Its just sad that a bunch of jealouse ppl decide now is the rite time to come out and debate this because of the tactic used to take down PW.
fata:
I remember soloing in a few spots on blm mainly the pso'xja spot (or how ever you spell it) where if something went wrong there is absolutly no way to zone. So in this situation what would you suggest? and dont say suck it up and die cause given the situation you wouldnt be so noble.
There is no other option by the rules. If you can't win by the rules, then either lose gracefully or don't play that area in the first place.
this entire thing is a waste of time. im pretty sure something as little as being able to log out for saftey is what keeps ppl happy and content with the game among other things. Its just sad that a bunch of jealouse ppl decide now is the rite time to come out and debate this because of the tactic used to take down PW.
Frankly, I was never aware of it before now -- and the thing is that, once I had some time to think about it and looked at the rules, the parent post to your comment is the result.
You see, this is the problem. You are treating your very specific interpretation as to the "intent of the game" as unassailable fact, when the reality is, your interpretation is, to put it charitably, poorly thought out. To say that utilizing /logout to avoid death violates the intent of the function is to make a very unwarranted assumption: if this were the true intent, S/E could have EASILY coded the game such that logging out was impossible while a mob had hate on you. But no, they didn't, which is proof enough to me that your interpretation is BS.
Other actions which clearly violate the intent of the game and whose abusers should be banned, if your logic holds:
1) Utilizing "bard-swapping" to get 6 2-hr'd songs onto multiple parties. Clearly the only reason to leave or join a specific group is to adventure with them.
2) Utilizing Mijin Gakure as a means of warping with no xp loss. Clearly because Mijin Gakure damages whomever it is used on, it was intended to be used only as a last-ditch kamikaze move to finish off whatever mob the group is having trouble with.
3) Zoning in order to escape a mob. Clearly the only reason to pass into a new zone is to find a new area to adventure in.
4) Utilization of Dispel, Stun, and other specific magic spells as a means to gain and hold enmity. Clearly dispelling a monster that has no status buffs, or stunning a monster that is not about to perform a dangerous move, falls outside the intended usage of those spells.
5) Utilizing RDM/DRK for the sole purpose of combining chainspell and stun. If S/E had wanted RDMs to stun, they would have given the job the spell. Clearly this falls outside of the intention of the ability.
6) Utilizing hpemde mobs in sea as a means to skill up one's enfeebling magic at no risk. Clearly an abuse of the hpemde's abnormal threat mechanics.
7) Utilization of the Escape spell as a means fast-travel through a dungeon zone by zoning in at one point and taking advantage of the fact that it will deposit you at another point. Clearly from the title, Escape was intended only to be used by parties that got in over their heads and needed an expedient magical means of retreating from a battle.
8) Use of the tractor spell to circumvent otherwise impassable terrain, such as getting to Byakko's island. Clearly Tractor was meant only to be used when a player died near an aggressive mob and needed to be pulled to a safe location.
I could go on and on. There are dozens of ways that most players circumvent what could easily be seen as the original intent of the game's designers on a daily basis. In most cases this is just seen by the developers as player innovation. Just because they banned a bunch of salvage dupers doesn't mean they've started a crusade to enforce the TOS to your ridiculously strict standards.
And something tells me that before the PW kill you weren't demanding the banning of each and every person that had ever slept a mob and then logged out in order to survive. Which makes you a hypocrite, if an ex-post-facto one.
Greg:
You see, this is the problem. You are treating your very specific interpretation as to the "intent of the game" as unassailable fact, when the reality is, your interpretation is, to put it charitably, poorly thought out. To say that utilizing /logout to avoid death violates the intent of the function is to make a very unwarranted assumption: if this were the true intent, S/E could have EASILY coded the game such that logging out was impossible while a mob had hate on you. But no, they didn't, which is proof enough to me that your interpretation is BS.
Bullshit. Then reinstate all the salvage dupers and give them back all their gear plus compensation.
Square-Enix' inactions do not give the players the damn excuse to rape the game balance. Sounds to me as if you want your little sandbox, and anyone who doesn't cheat has to bow down to your ass.
Sorry. What I'm calling for would be "common sense" if it were common. You tell me another reason for logging out other than the administrative function of leaving, and we'll talk.
Other actions which clearly violate the intent of the game and whose abusers should be banned, if your logic holds:
1) Utilizing "bard-swapping" to get 6 2-hr'd songs onto multiple parties. Clearly the only reason to leave or join a specific group is to adventure with them.
That would definitely have to be looked into, but I sense that's legal, especially if you're talking about parties in a larger fight. There's no simply administrative action involved here, Greg.
2) Utilizing Mijin Gakure as a means of warping with no xp loss. Clearly because Mijin Gakure damages whomever it is used on, it was intended to be used only as a last-ditch kamikaze move to finish off whatever mob the group is having trouble with.
That might well be discussable, too. Mijin Gakure as a warp against an unwinnable monster might be looked at, especially since the warp has no XP penalty. Of course, that it is the NIN 2-hour might be sufficient for SE to let it stand, but, you are correct in that MG to warp might need to be looked at.
3) Zoning in order to escape a mob. Clearly the only reason to pass into a new zone is to find a new area to adventure in.
This is one thing, though very basic to the game, that they do have to take a long look at, now that the player base has so totally tried to rape the game into their favor.
But, understand, you are still talking about actions from within the game. Logging out is not an action within the game -- it is an administrative function, which only exists within the game because you can't log out from the game if you're already outside it.
4) Utilization of Dispel, Stun, and other specific magic spells as a means to gain and hold enmity. Clearly dispelling a monster that has no status buffs, or stunning a monster that is not about to perform a dangerous move, falls outside the intended usage of those spells.
There has been some discussion as to whether the very practice of kiting is legal anymore. Dispelling to gain hate might well be illegal (at best, it's shady). Stunning as a first move, though??
5) Utilizing RDM/DRK for the sole purpose of combining chainspell and stun. If S/E had wanted RDMs to stun, they would have given the job the spell. Clearly this falls outside of the intention of the ability.
Sorry, *buzzer*. That's a function of having a subjob system in play. Stun is being used as a spell, hence Chainspell can apply. Both game mechanics are working as intended there.
If you want to make this distinction, no more subjobs. At all.
6) Utilizing hpemde mobs in sea as a means to skill up one's enfeebling magic at no risk. Clearly an abuse of the hpemde's abnormal threat mechanics.
What do we mean by "at no risk" here? You do realize that manipulating certain features in the game (the game's computer-geometry) for one) so that the monster cannot attack you _IS_ and _is stated_ illegal.
7) Utilization of the Escape spell as a means fast-travel through a dungeon zone by zoning in at one point and taking advantage of the fact that it will deposit you at another point. Clearly from the title, Escape was intended only to be used by parties that got in over their heads and needed an expedient magical means of retreating from a battle.
Square-Enix needs to clarify that. It's certainly somewhat questionable, yes. (If not illegal...)
8) Use of the tractor spell to circumvent otherwise impassable terrain, such as getting to Byakko's island. Clearly Tractor was meant only to be used when a player died near an aggressive mob and needed to be pulled to a safe location.
That IS, in fact, illegal. (For much the same purpose that you can't use the game's geometry to prevent a monster from attacking you...)
The only one on this list that I would absolutely say "Legal" on is the Chainspell-Stun routine (and only as a function of the subjob situation, which allows this to take place). The others all need one form of examination or another.
The Bard example and the Stun example are probably legal, but should at least be looked at. The zoning example might come down to a question as to what zoning actually is supposed to do. If it is a form of travel _only_, then it's illegal.
Your last two examples definitely appear illegal.
Mijin Gakure probably stands because it's a 2-hour effect, but definitely using it simply to warp might well be use of a game mechanic outside it's intended purpose, so it's a question of whether SE making MG 2-hour is enough to balance it out. Definitely needs to be looked into.
I could go on and on. There are dozens of ways that most players circumvent what could easily be seen as the original intent of the game's designers on a daily basis. In most cases this is just seen by the developers as player innovation. Just because they banned a bunch of salvage dupers doesn't mean they've started a crusade to enforce the TOS to your ridiculously strict standards.
Then reinstate them all. Under your lax interpretations of the rules, the players simply innovated a solution, given the present code, to make Salvage workable. Hence, under the same argument you present here, they should all be reinstated.
And something tells me that before the PW kill you weren't demanding the banning of each and every person that had ever slept a mob and then logged out in order to survive. Which makes you a hypocrite, if an ex-post-facto one.
Because I didn't know about that practice. Now that I do and have had thought of it, yes, I do call for their banishment.
"What do we mean by "at no risk" here? You do realize that manipulating certain features in the game (the game's computer-geometry) for one) so that the monster cannot attack you _IS_ and _is stated_ illegal."
This, right here, further proves that youre an ignorant moron. You dont have sea, do you? If you did, you wouldnt have made that comment. I'll let you figure out why.
You know nothing about what is right or wrong in this game. You are just like a little child who would screw up other people's game just because you cant play it your way. and YES, i say YOUR way. It is NOT SE's way. IF it was, SE would have banned the entire community long ago. IT is solely your retarded interpretation of the rules. You keep asking for another function for the logout button? Ok heres one. TO ESCAPE DEATH!
If you werent so ignorant of the game, you'd have known about that ages ago. SE has known forever. They havent banned anyone for it. GMs were asked about it. They confirmed it is no illegal. And no matter what you do, you wont change that. Keep crying till your heart's content. It is all the more amusing for the rest of the community to see a 40 y/o angry virgin to shed tears over a video game.
I am not sure if you realize just how much we are so laughing at you. I mean litteraly laugh out loud. I dont think there exists another player on the game as stupid is you can be. We, the rest of the FFXI playerbase, simply cant believe you are even serious with your comments. No one would believe someone can be that retarded. But yea, keep trying to convince SE. Lol you gonna bring them to court for "not enforcing THEIR rules in THEIR video game?" lololol Are you even serious? I really still cant believe you are. lol
Stop wasting time wondering who youre gonna send your retarded letter to. Do it already. I so wish SE is going to answer you, though I highly doubt they will bother for something this retarded. I would love to see their faces as they read it. I'd bet anything they would so laugh at you in their office, saying things like ".... this guy cant possibly be serious right?" You are a joke, no threat to anyone. A pitiful sideshow to be laughed at and humiliated.
Oh, I realize how much you're laughing at me.
Don't think I don't. Realize, also, how much I abhor your sorry asses for being cheating 2chan punks who definitely want to provoke a violent response -- one you will get if I have nothing left to lose.
Now, to the pertinent part of your comment.
The use of any administrative function of the game to gain gameplay advantage is ILLEGAL. Using logout to avoid death is ILLEGAL. Got it? And if you believe that using logout to avoid death is so necessary, get off my fucking game and go to WoW and shit all over that one.
The rule is right there in front of you (Q12652), and if you don't like it, go QQ to Square-Enix.
If you really believe half the shit you post, get all the Salvage dupers reinstated. Now.
SE knew of the Salvage dupes for 18 months. By your logic, they declared that legal too until somebody finally decided to embarrass the company enough to endanger the game's future.
If logging hate is legal, then there is no reason for Square-Enix to step in now, after 18 months, and nail the Salvage dupers.
You fucking right I'm serious about forcing SE to enforce their rules -- and I am considering legal action against the company.
"I am considering legal action against the company."
Do it already. Stop "considering". Bring us our laughs. Now.
Considering leagal action huh lol well you said you were going to look at your options 1st rite? well here is one for you, put you controller down call some friends ( if they too can also put down the controller) go to the bar and get so stupid drunk, find the ugliest girl there and take her home and attempt to sleep with her. if all goes well you should wake up in the morning feeling relieved of stress and then tell me if you REALLY give a fuck about what you are talking about here lol.... lets just say you did move forward with legal action and by some very small chance you win.... what would you say to ppl you care about or are close to you when they ask how your day went? "Well i took this gaming company to court and won cause they didnt like to enforce their rules... i probably ruined the game for everyone but hey im happy" do realize how pathetic you are?
all in all id just like to let you know you have no life and im sure that isnt just my opinion but probably most everyone else to and its you who have given us the ability to pretty much call it a fact. you did it to yourself... but hey i hope this works out for you ^^d
It's people like you that I want to wreck the day for.
Can you even read or write?
I mean, seriously: Look at your approximation for a comment. My Bullshit-to-English Translator broke on it, so I can't decipher half of your leet-speak crap.
i just called you a virgin with no friends and that you have no life and the best you can do is try and come up with some wity way of saying you cant read it?
YOU HAVE NO LIFE
i can tell you probably a horrible person to be around in person
why dont you go work on your social life before you get all worked up at someone like me on another server logging out of a game so im not waisting time dying
You remind me, pig, of a type of poster that literally gives my roommate headaches:
You have no sentence structure...
You won't capitalize shit unless you decide to scream to try to make your point...
You write like a six year-old on crack...
I don't care if a cheating pig like you thinks I have no life. Just try to be literate.
Oh, you probably don't even know what that word means...
wow, what kind of a response to what i said is that? lol i tell you there is no hope for a future social life for you and you complain that i don't type PrOp3R as if there was a chance i would care. only reason i ever posted is cause i wanted to know why you would be such an angry and immature person to waste his time even giving a shit what other people do with the game they PAY to play? you need to get over yourself. you're a nobody, you are the same as everyone else who plays. go play the game the way you want to play it and stop stressin this crap lol
geWd Bai
Seems like most of the heat in this thread has died, but I wanted to give my two cents anyway...
A while back, I got into a discussion about this technique with a few linkshell members. I forget the exact circumstances as we were all casual players then, and we'd never needed to use this tactic since we'd never fought anything tough enough to require it.
I ended up calling a GM to ask if this was officially recognized as an exploit. After a slow discussion (why is it that GMs take five minutes to reply to line of text you type?), the GM replied with a resounding "No" and that ended that debate. I took screenshots of it, but I have no clue where they are today.
I personally consider this to be, at the very least, a cheap tactic as - unlike kiting, shadow tanking, DoT stacking, etc. - it requires virtually no skill or strategy to execute. I think, at one point, I likened it to entering and leaving The Matrix in that, in a real persistent world (essentially, the type that Square-Enix is trying to emulate), such an act would be impossible.
I know some people don't think _anything_ in FFXI requires skill, but I think that's exaggerating. Any game from Peggle to Call of Duty is "just pushing buttons" when you drill it down that far.
But if Square-Enix allows it, I'm really in no position to protest it.
As far as why they allow it, I think it's because it's simply unenforceable. When a GM gets to the point where they're saying "I forbid you from logging out!" for _any_ reason, the backlash is going to be enormous.
Yeah, it's died down a bit, so that's why I guess I got an intelligent comment on the subject by you, Renaissance 2K:
Seems like most of the heat in this thread has died, but I wanted to give my two cents anyway...
As I said, I think it allows you to actually make an intelligent comment without it getting lost in the shuffle.
A while back, I got into a discussion about this technique with a few linkshell members. I forget the exact circumstances as we were all casual players then, and we'd never needed to use this tactic since we'd never fought anything tough enough to require it.
I've even had to consider reporting my Dynamis linkshell, since it has gotten to the point where they almost used the tactic.
I ended up calling a GM to ask if this was officially recognized as an exploit. After a slow discussion (why is it that GMs take five minutes to reply to line of text you type?), the GM replied with a resounding "No" and that ended that debate. I took screenshots of it, but I have no clue where they are today.
The fact is that I think the GMs are simply there to deflect any real discussion of the rules and basically put the kibosh on any real disputes on matters.
I mean, I just got a GM Call a few days back, and the guy simply told me to blacklist the RMT tell that I had received.
WTF??? First off, the sites which put these guys out should be criminally prosecuted.
Second, if the best the GM can do is tell me to blist the RMT tell spam, then they're throwing in the towel.
And that's what I'm beginning to think has happened across the board with respect to Square-Enix and FFXI -- the towel has been thrown in.
I personally consider this to be, at the very least, a cheap tactic as - unlike kiting, shadow tanking, DoT stacking, etc. - it requires virtually no skill or strategy to execute. I think, at one point, I likened it to entering and leaving The Matrix in that, in a real persistent world (essentially, the type that Square-Enix is trying to emulate), such an act would be impossible.
I'm trying to find the best way to put it, and I think the closest I got is that logging out is simply an administrative act, and the only reason it exists within the game is that you have to be within the game to log out.
But, to me, it is not an action within the game itself, but only one existant within the game because you have to be in the game to log out.
Hence, I believe Q12652 applies, and any advantage gained by logging out of an act within the game is illegal, bannable, and all such punishments apply.
I know some people don't think _anything_ in FFXI requires skill, but I think that's exaggerating. Any game from Peggle to Call of Duty is "just pushing buttons" when you drill it down that far.
There's another thing to it as well... When you're getting to the point that the ability to even take part in many parts of Vana'diel requires massive illegal software exploits and significant RMT activity, then I would say that there is quite a discussable point with respect to that FFXI requires little to no actual skill.
But if Square-Enix allows it, I'm really in no position to protest it.
It is completely inconsistent with Square-Enix' own rules and with their prior decisions (I believe, if you allow this, then the Salvage dupers, who I believe have committed no worse an act, except for its scope, than this, should be reinstated...).
As far as why they allow it, I think it's because it's simply unenforceable. When a GM gets to the point where they're saying "I forbid you from logging out!" for _any_ reason, the backlash is going to be enormous.
It's completely enforceable if you _do it right_. The problem is that I don't think they can do it right at this point, or clearly don't want to.
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