Tuesday, May 26, 2009

"We cheat, we're proud of it, and fuck you for being so gimp!!" -- Some elite players

I'd say "many", but I remember that this has to be put on the TTTO.  :)

You know, the hubris and arrogance of the players in this game really doesn't surprise me.

The LEVELS of it, though, are getting to be quite annoying.

I mean, if I had a nickel for every time I hear "YOU GOT SO FUCKING GIMP GEAR, YOU AREN'T EVEN WORTHY TO BE ON MY GAME...  YOU A WEAK TARD, ME LEET...", my roommate wouldn't have to worry about the rent for the rest of the summer.

I get the impression that FFXI has become MtG ReDux -- to "win", you have to cheat.

It doesn't matter what kind of ethics you bring to the game -- it's all about "my gear is leet, yours sucks, and BluGartr is laughing at you for it".

(And someone did.  What they forget is that I might be the one healing their ass during Besieged when no one else will -- or can!!  Of course, the real funny thing:  His "title"??  Starcade.  *bow*)

(So much so that, when one player decided to tell me to my (online) face, basically, "I bot and SMN burn and I'm proud of it!", he got his ass reported to the Special Task Force, with information gleaned from his Blogger profile to come up with a name and an address (and an approximate home city) for the STFU to cross-reference.)

Do I expect anything done??  Consider the STFU's record...

But it is the only recourse available to me, and I just used it.

It just gets to me that it really appears that the more you cheat, the more "leet" you become.

Trust me, you don't want me to play like that.  That's Denial of Service-type talk.


Anonymous said...

About the Astralburning from the BG topics. From what I read. Apparently astralburning is not against the rules or considered cheating. Its situational, I've even called a GM to ask them.


Pulling it to a point of strangling the zone of monsters in a "currently active zone" will cause you problems. You can be called on "griefing" if you "came after others" being there.

However, if you are in an "empty zone" or were "originally there first" before others. You will not be in breach of the ToS, you will be fine.


How you fight isn't judged, but when and where you fight. overcamping others, and hindering their ability to a fun experience is also calculated.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

It's still a monopoly, but will anyone prosecute a monopoly that doesn't really exist because there's only one entity in there start-to-finish??

The other part is what's problematic. Astral Burning, by definition, is a practice which strangles the zone (you get some COR's involved in the process with their 2-hours, and the strangulation becomes worse).

I still maintain the practice is, as a matter of definition, illegal (zone manipulation, plus the probability of that it is using game mechanics in ways Square-Enix never intended), but the question of what you really could do if there were only one person in the area of the zone (who would stand witness to the incident, for one??) in question would be an issue.

The fact that "you were there first" can't be an excuse -- else you could gain a zone and cockblock the rest of the players for as long as you wanted, but "you were there first"!!

Anonymous said...

Sometimes there's no appeasing the Cult of the White Box. To them, you are either pimp'd or gimp'd, there is no grey area, you are not allotted any time to actually work to get decent gear.

I've learned to tune it out, since anyone in any of my LSs (social and endgame) know that even for a 75MNK with a brown belt and cobra unit subligar, I still kick a lot of ass. The 'great' gear will come in time with hard-work and dedication, and of course each job has available gear that is simply must-have AND not a pain to obtain, but I never understood why people get so excessively riled up over not immediately having <1% performance enhancements.

My mantra with gear has always been, "Work it, don't Merc it." Gotta get it the old fashioned way, and it's the journey that brings with it satisfaction in the game.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...


I'd agree with you, but my cause is much larger than myself.

It is one of the reasons I truly believe that Square-Enix has drawn the shades, declared the patient brain-dead, and will continue to pimp said brain-dead patient (FFXI) as long as it makes enough money to bridge people until it can whore the next overhyped, three-years-too-late motif out there (Rapture, the FFXIII series, etc. etc.).

The problem is the question I've asked before in this blog:

Why am I playing FFXI by the rules if it is to my grave detriment to do so?What purpose does the rule set have if it is nothing but a hindrance to one's ability to associate within the game?

I'd love to tune out "The Cult of the White Box". The problem there is that, with places like BluGartr and all such, they assert supreme claim over Vana'diel -- and use Windower 4.0 and AppRadar and God only knows what else to illegally gain this loot.

That is THEFT from Square-Enix. Criminal and civil. Since you do not own your character, nor nothing on it, you are taking from Square-Enix gear which is not entitled to belong to your character.

(And, on top of that, you have to wonder how much of that is RMT (either gil-, item-, and/or character-based)...)

That's what made 75 BST fun. Doubly, 75 DRG. But these punks don't care, and, if we are to have a Vana'diel which doesn't turn into a 2chan-4chan crap-fest, we have to force them to.

We have the mechanisms to do so, should Square-Enix respect their own rules.

Anonymous said...

You're big and important in Besieged! Keep casting those cure 4s like it means anything

Tuufless said...

I don't actually think Astralburning is at all bad. If anything, I find it a brilliant use of game mechanics. Unlike the Salvage dupes which exploited a loophole in coding, Astralburning falls entirely within legal game mechanics, and it was understanding those mechanics that led to Astralburns.

You have player creativity to thank there. Vana'diel would be a very dull place if everything had to be done in a specific way.

You may say that it is using game mechanics "in ways not intended." However, who is to say what is the so-called "intended" method? Ninjas should stay as pullers and not be tanks, because that certainly fit SE's original intention for the job.

The real issue behind the player that got banned was because his activities were intruding into other players experience, and I will agree with SE for his banning (or a warning/suspension- either way, I think he deserves something), though not for your reasons. Similarly, I show no quarter to outside people who intentionally wreck an Astralburn train.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

refreshwhore: Wow.

You are a sorry cunt.

Your parents made a mistake by not turning you over their knees more often.

For you to actually come out and claim that healing people during Besieged is of no merit whatsoever shows that you are an arrogant, self-centered, egotistical bitch who has no right to be in Besieged.

I hereby crown you as a carrier of the Asura Disease, you arrogant fucker.

If you're on Leviathan, tell me who you are so I can make sure NOT to cure your skank ass.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Tuufless: Hey, at least an intelligent discussion, on first read. (To your credit)

As I tried to explain to some of the less educated and more arrogant, Astral Burning is, as a matter of definition, zone monopolization by strangling the ability of players to play the game in that zone, because the SMN or the party of SMNs basically destroy all the mobs in a given area, forcing the other players to either leave the area or wait it out.

That, by direct definition, is illegal under the Terms of Service. All it would take is a valid complaint (which would indicate that another player is attempting to "enjoy the game" in that zone, which takes the "only entity in the zone" motif out of play) and, blammo.

Hence, I can easily conclude that Astral Burn IS illegal, on it's face. As an application, though, another player trying to "enjoy the game" there would probably be required.

I mean, if we can do anything in this game when no one else is around, then there is no such thing as illegal conduct at all. That's the slope I see this group of sad "people" going down.

Astral Burning loses its legality as a function of the massive number of mobs it is _designed_ to take out. This creates zone monopolization. Therefore, I cannot, by definition, agree with your idea that Astral Burning is a proper use of game mechanics.

Who is to say what methods of game play are "intended use"? Square-Enix, at their sole discretion. In fact, at their sole _whim_.

To go to your specific example, I'm shocked, frankly, that Utsusemi has not been nerfed, once /NIN basically became a necessity for most endgame, even if Square-Enix declares that to be an acceptable "intended use". (For example, fewer shadows AND a longer recast...)

As for your last point: The Astral Burning itself is what interferes with the other players' experience. I agree that it was the interference, but that interference came because of the fact that he was monopolizing the zone (at least from what I am reading from him), denying the other players the ability to play in that area.

Anonymous said...

(Did this not post the first time? Please delete if this is a duplicate)

It's not zone monopolization. Astral flow lasts all of 2 minutes, then you have to wait 2 hours to cool it down. Zone "monopolization" implies extended denial of monsters to other players, but astral burns do not last that long. It's bout quick, concise exp, utilizing a game mechanic to do so.

Sure, you can argue more time for the time it takes to gather the mobs together, but monsters are (at most) 16 minute repops in zone, so you're costing people 30 minutes, max, on monsters in a zone?

You can even argue corsairs resetting astral flow, but even then it's a small, finite amount of time.

As Tuufless said, if it's not negatively-affecting other players' gaming experience, it's not against the ToS. If it is with intent or effect of harming others' gaming experience, then yes, it is.

That said, as a method of gaining experience, it's brilliant, and legitimate (even by GMs' own admission). Blanketing Astral Burns under "Zone Monopolization" when a zone might have 0 demand in it at the time is silly.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

kio_seraph: It did not post. I never received the post the first time in my moderation zone, so I wasn't able to post it. It's here now, though.

Astral Burning was probably not touched for the simple reason that it was a 2-hour effect. But it takes time for the group to build up enough monsters for the process to be meaningful.

Get an organized Astral Burn party together for a zone, and you can use it (if you do it smartly) to cockblock the zone for quite a period of time. Consider a party of 4X SMN and 2X COR, for one.

It's zone monopolization, and the only question of the matter is if someone calls it. Someone did on the original poster in the BG thread, and his character go poof.

You're only taking into account the 2 minutes of the actual Astral Burn -- not the extended period of time it might take to properly set up the situation before the player or party actually does.

The monopolization begins at set-up, not execution.

And the Astral Burner, to get concise XP, has to bring enough mobs into the equation (since he doesn't have infinite MP) to do it in one or a few blasts.

You're even saying 30 minutes is an acceptable amount of time to cockblock players from XPing in a zone you choose to SMN burn at?? You or I might have 3-4 hours to play in a session, but that doesn't mean everyone else does.

The problem with your (collective) argument is that it compromises the experience of EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN THAT PART OF THE ZONE, _by definition of what you are doing_. At best, they have to work around you. At worst, they have to find another zone.

In another example: I'm actually, in fact, somewhat stunned we haven't seen more calls of monopolization vs. beastmen mobs for ACP drops in the last two months.

Astral Burning is not legitimate -- the GM's just want to be left alone.

Hungry for Spam said...

In what way is having a 75 being both puller and tank for a level 13 party clever like NIN tanking, instead of a blatant subversion and exploitation? It's a ridiculous argument that there is any legitimacy to Astral Burning in the first place.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Hungry for Spam:

My point exactly. The entire strategy is illegal.

Volkai said...

"I get the impression that FFXI has become MtG ReDux -- to "win", you have to cheat."

Wait, what's this about Magic: the Gathering?

Volkai said...

"I'd love to tune out "The Cult of the White Box". The problem there is that, with places like BluGartr and all such, they assert supreme claim over Vana'diel -- and use Windower 4.0 and AppRadar and God only knows what else to illegally gain this loot."

Pfffft. If you want to tune them out, tune them out. You don't have to read the BluGartr forums. I generally don't -- when I do, it's because someone's linked an interesting thread from my linkshell's forum.

Also, I wish they could be called the Cult of the Orange Box, or at least of the Blue Box... but there just aren't enough HQ2 and HQ3 equipment items out there. (Actually are there any HQ3 equipment items? Now that I think about it, I think that only occurs with consumables like Potions and Ethers.)

Volkai said...

And... I think the final decision by SE with regards to Astral Burns is that it's not cheating.

Which relegates it to the category of FPS-style Camping: No, it is not cheating. It is not technically against the rules. It does not represent a lack of skill -- in fact it requires some specialized skill to pull off successfully.

However, it is lame, it lacks style, and you might not want someone who does it in your group, as they might not be much good at anything else.