Friday, February 6, 2009

Flamage Part 11: How many of you even play the game, and not the system...

The more things change, the more they stay the same.  I swear I must be in the middle of Bizarro World here.

I look to the blog and see 11 comments to last night's report to the Special Task Force (demanding an investigation of the Apathy-Remora "win" over Pandemonium Warden, a clear violation of the Terms of Service...)

I responded to most of them, but you might want a look at the comment list yourself, because I don't care to dignify most of these with recopying them here.  But I did want to raise several points which probably should be raised, and all I can say is:  Given what I've heard from these jokers, "Be afraid, be very afraid."

Hogie48 agrees with that it may not have been what Square-Enix intended, but thinks I have a burr up my ass.

He's right on both counts, and the reason (as I said) that I have a burr up my ass is that it appears as if the player-base does not give two damns about actually playing the game with any sense of honor, integrity, or anything else.

Which see a number of these other comments, like this one:

"Idiots who have never even killed Kirin or struggled to do so should not be able to Q.Q like little bitches." -- Brandon

Brandon, then stop me from "Q.Q"-ing, bitch.

Not only that, Brandon, but (as I said in my comment) it would appear to me as if you are all but admitting that the game is unplayable (to you, and to many others) without cheating the system -- that you cannot beat Kirin without violating the rules.  At that point, I would then go back to what I said to Square-Enix:  What exploits are allowed, and what are not?  This is why you don't want to go there:  because it appears that there are many players who cannot play Final Fantasy XI without cheating like that.

And I have to say to them (including you, Brandon, it sounds like from what you are saying):  Go screw around with World of Warcraft.

Maxxthepenguin missed the point of the entire last two weeks when he claimed that Square-Enix could've coded logging out so as not to reset hate, but they didn't.

This would, in fact, constitute a third charge against Apathy, unless you openly wish to state that you don't believe the Salvage-dupers should've been banned - that it was all Square-Enix' fault, as usual...  Right, Maxx??

Xx asks why I have to "be like that"...  Answer:  Because of people like you.

Next comment basically gets to a heart of the matter.

Raen Ryong basically says I'm jealous that someone else has PW drops and I don't.

There is an old truism that many people live by, that the "ends justify the means".  That it doesn't matter what tactics you use, as long as you "win".

Raen:  You are a fucking bastard, and are exposed as such.  I am not jealous as to the PW drops they got, and, not only that, but I would like to believe I demand that any items dropped in the game are won fairly.  You, sir, don't seem to give a shit about fairness, the rules, or integrity.  So I ask you whether you play the game, or game the system...

I go back to the comment I heard someone (and I wish I had at least the nick this person used) on VanaChat the Friday night of FanFest when he/she said half the players in the game cheat.  I reiterate my stand:  Given that, the game has no future and should have no future.  And if people like Raen are going to claim it's all about the drops, all about the status, all about "1337 pwnage!!11111!!111!11!11", then you, like most American gamers, suck.

To Titanss:  No, you don't cross my mind, and I wonder if you have a mind for anything _to_ cross...

Robert clarifies the apparent strategy in his comment, but misses one key point here:

It doesn't matter one whit whether the logging out is necessary or simply a matter "to be safe".  That is _irrelevant to the discussion_.  The fact is they committed an act to gain an unfair advantage which was outside the one stated purpose of logging out:  To leave Final Fantasy XI.  Any purpose within the game itself, outside of departure (which could, essentially, mean any purpose within the game), constitutes a breach of the rules.

And then he asks what I have to consider one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever heard on the Internet:  He asks if I was one of the Salvage-dupers...

I'm not insulted by the question itself, but more of the insult of my intelligence.  The question itself is actually an off-shoot of something I said earlier:  The actions of the Salvage-dupers bring into question the integrity of every high-level player in the game, _including me_.

But how anyone who could read this blog come up with that question with any degree of intelligence is beyond my personal level of comprehension.

Onward to Stephanie:  So when you accidentally agg something which will kill you and cannot zone, she gives two options:

a) Sleep it and log out.
b) Take it like a man and die.

(Of course, she fails to understand the possibility of sleeping it and running and hope it triggers the anti-MPK situation, but that might even be a violation of the rules.)

The answer is simple:  You get a dirt nap.  Get raised or home-pointed.  Again, there is ONE purpose to logging out -- to leave.  Any other action can be stated as a breach of the rules and actionable as such.

Maybe it's time for Square-Enix to get real nasty and turn Garlaige Citadel into Garlaige Shit-a-del again, because it can no longer assume the players are going to play honestly.  You are not allowed to leave the game just because you got an inconvenient pull.  I got one today in Jugner in the Shadowrealm as I was running back from triggering the questionnaire in Dancers in Distress (one of the new WotG missions)...  I ate my 2400-point drop like a man.  Got another one farming in the promies today.  Ate that one too, with frustration.

If you always have to win, it doesn't make the victory worth anything.  If you aren't willing to actually work within the system, the win becomes a cheat.  Perhaps that's why people can't play fairly anymore:  We've become so used, as gamers, as needing this cheat or that hack or the other exploit that we truly can't play the game anymore.

Stephanie:  The Salvage-dupes were "standard game knowledge" -- a "dirty little secret" the end-gamers had (even though my roommate is correct that it could not have been completely absent any knowledge by Square-Enix...) to exploit the shitty drop rates.

Logging out for any other purpose than leaving the game (if for five minutes or five years) is NOT using the game mechanic as intended, and using it for an advantage in-game is ILLEGAL.

Brent:  The answer to your first question has been addressed above several times:  Since the action is outside the purpose of the game mechanic:  Yes, they should be punished, and banned if that's what it calls for.  They broke the rules by manipulating a game mechanic to create an unfair advantage (that one commenter has said they may not have even needed!!!).

If you can't get that clear, then I question how many such things you've exploited over the course of time.

And then you flame the salvage-dupers, and then praise Apathy for "Players adapt, and that's what they did."??  You're trying to have it both ways, and I'm not falling for that garbage.  One or the other -- you can't praise these guys and dump on the dupers.  They're essentially the same thing -- why does one abuse and the other "adapt"?

Logging to clear hate is an unfair advantage and an exploit of PW's code on top of it (that clearing all hate from PW stops all attacks from it until new hate is instituted).

ineedproof123456 only can count to 6, but basically gives a nice demonstration of administrative double-talk.  They let this stand, he should almost go to work for Square-Enix.

Paul is trying to rewrite history, I fear, so I will spare him the further embarrassment.

----------

Several things are becoming quite clear:

1) Much of the player-base does not know how to kill anything above a worm fairly.
2) The ends, clearly, justify the means for most of these jokers.
and 3) The only reason I'm still playing FFXI is to spite these idiots.  I clearly cannot enjoy the game with them around, but I'll still be there to be a thorn in their sides.




40 comments:

Robonosto said...

Recall one relevant clause to this "matter."

"Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play may [my emphasis] have their account suspended and all items or experience obtained through those means confiscated."

Does this clause not give SE wide discretionary power to determine what is acceptable to "them" within the bounds of normal game mechanics? As the ultimate arbiter of what goes, SE has already given tacit approval to this PW kill (until it decides to recant, perhaps), which renders completely irrelevant your unserious, turgid pseudo-morality pertaining to a fundamentally unserious pastime (playing video games). (Why so serious?) As though SE would even care about inconsistency in applying the terms of service, which only has "legal" ("LOL") force to the extent that it's willing to enforce it. Right, SE should shut it down if it can't be assed to be "consistent" in its application of the TOS. Complete nonsense. No one cares (except you perhaps), least of all SE.

Second, have you even heard of reraise items or does your macho posturing about a video game preclude your using them?

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Robonosto: And what I'm saying is that that degree of discretion is NOT a place they want to go if they want a future for FFXI.

You could even make a charge that certain _players_ are allowed what would be the equivalent of a "juice card". They have the juice, and can do whatever the Hell they want.

What I am calling for the STF to do is _precisely_ to recant the victory and treat it as a violation of the Terms of Service -- to punish the players to prevent exactly the scenario you describe, where the _may_ clause becomes a question of not only selective tactics, but, perhaps, selective _players_ as well.

Why so serious? Because, as I tried to say in my response to those who mock that I am 40 and state as such, we live in a culture which, now, encourages, glorifies, and mandates (in many arenas) cheating, "ends justify the means", and all that stuff which, if not checked will result in our society falling in a hail of gunfire.

Let's put it this way: Old-time poker had one nice part to it: You cheat, you die. That kept the game on the up and up.

And to what is the relevance of your reraise comment? The DoT argument??

Robonosto said...

Too bad. SE has had that degree of discretion from Day 1 (or close enough to Day 1). Guess what? The game moves on and will continue to move on. MMORPGs seem to have a decent enough profit margin.

You don't have to cheat to "win" at FFXI. Neither do you always have to "win." Worry about your own goals (which can achieve w/o cheating by your own personal standards that no one really cares about in the end) instead of getting on other people's nuts about something you'll never touch with your attitude.

Wow, each generation collectively complains about the moral decay of the successive generation? Really? Old hat. Yawn.

My bringing up reraise is mainly ad hominem. Just as you deem "cheaters" have nothing to say on anything about the game (which is logical nonsense), I declare that you have nothing to say on anything in the game b/c you wear stupid shit like eating a HP like a badge of honor (which is also logical nonsense).

Tarage said...

You say that you can't enjoy this game, but will continue to play to be a 'thorn in the side of those who do'. That would appear to be harassment, and against the TOS. Perhaps you should be banned yourself.

But that's beside the point. If you honestly think that you are a thorn in anyone's side, your ego is far too inflated to deal with. You are insignificant. You are nothing. I hope you enjoy realizing that no matter what you do, you won't amount to anything, and the players of Apathy will continue to have a great time without you. Q-fucking-q.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Tarage: Then bring the charge. GM my ass, then. Go right straight ahead and let's see how far you get with it.

You opened up your mouth and raised the pot. I call. Show your cards.

I'm absolutely serious when I say that I have lost a lot of the ability to have fun with FFXI with people like you around. The cheating bastards and the idiots who support them (and if you aren't in the first group, you most certainly are in the second!!) are wrecking this game for a whole Hell of a lot of people.

And I'm doubly serious to say that I will be here to be a thorn in the sides of both those groups -- if given the chance, in game. Certainly on this blog. Perhaps you'd like to notify Blogger/Google and have my account and this blog yanked?

The easiest thing for me to do would be to leave, but that just means the game is one step closer to being left to the cheaters and their friends. I don't come on FFXI to make friends.

To your other supposed "point": If Square-Enix wants to be taken seriously and have the rules taken seriously, I can rest assure you that the members of Apathy will have to be suspended or banned en masse. Otherwise, the players are going to start wondering which players are going to be bound by which rules... Square-Enix does *NOT* want to go there.

And, by the way this is written, you're either in Apathy or have friends there. Send this message back to them: They're cheating shit, and always look over your shoulder, because you don't know when that next set of LM-11's or LM-17's might have your names on them.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Now back to Robonosto:

They always have discretion, but using discretion too liberally to allow the players to run wild and _then_ bringing down the hammer only selectively can lead to a situation where Square-Enix is only enforcing certain rules, and, then, even only to certain players.

If you think FFXI has any future in that kind of an environment, I need to hear this one. The game will NOT "move on" from something like that.

The "badge of honor" is that I don't have to cheat to avoid taking the occasional dirt nap.

Tarage said...

>>Then bring the charge. GM my ass, then. Go right straight ahead and let's see how far you get with it.

No, because that would be a waste of time. Surprise, it's the same thing you're doing!

>>Certainly on this blog.

You do realize that people are simply laughing at your ego, nothing else.

>>I don't come on FFXI to make friends.

Wow... so you're happy alone with your ego? I'm impressed.

>>Otherwise, the players are going to start wondering which players are going to be bound by which rules...

Did you miss the QQ-fest that happened recently with the bannings? We've been wondering what SE is doing for YEARS, but we still play. You are clearly an example of someone who still plays.

>>And, by the way this is written, you're either in Apathy or have friends there.

Nope, don't know anyone in that shell, but I think they did an awesome job killing a mob SE designed poorly. They have dedication.

My point is, while you think you are some internet white knight, crusading against the cheaters of the world, the rest of us realize what a sad lonely creature you really are. You probably don't have many friends with your black/white attitude, and I can't imagine you to be a very happy individual with all the anger you've shown. You have to realize that SE has FAR more important things to deal with than your little online petition. Somehow you got into your head that you are important. Let me say this once and for all.

You're not.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

No waste of time at all, unless you also wish to believe that any real enforcement of the ToS is also a similar waste of time, which, at that point, makes the game a sham game and not worth the time for neither players (generally) nor Square-Enix.

You opened up your mouth, I called your bluff. Hell, by your "logic", any enforcement of the rules could be considered a similar waste of time.

I understand people are laughing at my ego. I just hope Square-Enix comes down on their cheating asses. Failure to do that is one of the reasons why WoW, popularity-wise, kicks FFXI's ass. Failure to do that now will make FFXI unfeasible to continue.

Break the holy laws of Altana, and Altana Herself shall smite you. Approach it like that if you must. Or are you, as a player, God in FFXI?

Here's the problem now, though: If it becomes clear that Square-Enix will only enforce some of the rules (and, then, only to some of the players), what stops Vana'diel from going anarchy?

Or is that what you *want*? Full out PK, hack the servers, all that shit???

Joey said...

Yeah completely outrageous comparison I know. When I was watching The Power of Nightmares there was a part of it devoted to the roots of Islamic Fundamentalism. They started out believing that their leaders had corrupted Islam, so it was ok to kill them because they weren't true muslims. When the people didn't revolt when Anwar Sadat was assassinated, well, they decided the people weren't true Muslims anymore and were fair game. They had decided only the Fundamentalists were true Muslims, this eventually devolved into several independent groups of 30 or so guys living in the mountains each believing they were the true Muslims and everyone else needed to be killed.

I thought this was a rather insane mindset when applied to religion. I don't even know what to think about it being applied to a video game. If you ban everyone that uses windower, logs hate, zones mobs, runs from mobs that aggroed them (taking advantage of terrain), or any of the numerous other things that are doable but may or may not have been preconceived by SE. Eventually you're going to wind up with about 30 guys on one server who all play BST because they can't stand one another because they believe the other 29 weren't vocal enough about the 499,970 cheaters getting banned.

Averien said...

You have it in your head-- for what reason, I'm sure nothing really knows-- that you have sole, final discression on what SE thinks the purpose of logging is.

Let's try a logic lesson--

1) SE commended Apathy on their win, long enough after to have had a chance to review it to make sure it was legitimate.

2) SE has not banned, nor warned, anyone, anywhere, anytime that logging to remove hate is a questionable, unethical, illegal, or even unintended tactic.

3) SE has drawn a pretty clear line in the sand: harass/grief others, RMT, dupe... you get a ban. Abuse other exploits after warned "Hey... that's a bad PC. No!" and get banned. This doesn't fall under any of those headings.

It might be a tactic that you wouldn't use; you may not find it honorable. But it really isn't in your realm of influence to say that the only purpose of logging off is that you are done playing. It may be unexpected, but unexpected tactics are not exploits.

SE has shown several times that unexpected solutions-- zerging AV, for example-- will result in them changing things if it isn't to their liking. Again, they commended Apathy on the kill. They are, in effect, saying that logging is NOT an exploit, no matter what you think.

tl;dr: You aren't the judge of what is and isn't an exploit. Don't dupe, don't grief, don't RMT and you're fine.

Tarage said...

>>Here's the problem now, though: If it becomes clear that Square-Enix will only enforce some of the rules (and, then, only to some of the players), what stops Vana'diel from going anarchy?

Uh... again, it's been clear this has been the case for YEARS.

I'm done. You are beyond help if you think anything will come of your crusade. Enjoy being alone and unhappy.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Joey: And if there are that few legitimate players that the game cannot be financially continued, then my position on that has already been made: Thank those few legitimate players for their service, and shut the game down.

Averein: I have it in my head that there is a sole purpose for logging out, and that is -- wait for it -- LOGGING OUT!! To allow this win to stand is a clear abrogation of the rules on the part of Square-Enix, and leaves a level of inconsistency which will destroy the game. I am still left openly to wonder how anyone could make an argument, feasible to the rules, that there is any in-game purpose to logging out to gain advantage in a battle. You are logging out, people -- leaving the game.

1) I am appealing that, as I said in my comment to the other post, to the "Supreme Court", as it were. The ruling makes no sense, especially given the STF's actions from just two weeks ago. As far as I am concerned, the only consistent ruling would be to reinstate all the Salvage-dupers, at that point. Both stand, or neither stands. Both are against the rules and bannable.

2) Then it's time they start. Because doing that is against their stated rules, as it uses a game mechanic in a way not intended. You could also, then, throw out the rule against third-party software, with your argument -- Windower and its plug-ins, which also need to be made bannable and are, at abject minimum, over a year late in being done.

3) You're wrong, and, if unenforced, so are they --which leads to the conclusion I've warned that Square-Enix dare not go if it wants not to have a sham game. It DOES fall under the bannable stuff, as it exploits not only the effects of logging out, but also the code of PW for what happens when PW has no remaining emnity alive or in the game.

Over the course of five years, I've paid several hundred dollars in fees to them and I damned well expect a fair and legitimate game in return. If that's too much to ask, I want my money back.

(Not that I'd get it, but...)

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Whoops, one more:

Tarage: Then Square-Enix is running a sham game. What one can have hoped is that the actions of January 22nd of 2009 might be, as DJ Plaeskool said, an open shot across the bow to the high-caliber player-base that Square-Enix runs and owns the game, not the players.

Allowing this "win" after banning the dupers could even be considered fraud on the part of Square-Enix, really... Because how you can basically then say that Square-Enix is not creating a situation where they will grant items, wins, notoriety/fame, etc. to the "Chosen Ones" with the "stroke"/"juice" is beyond my personal comprehension.

tacrozar said...

SE doesn't care. Why should you? If you don't like the way SE is handling things then stop playing.

I'm curious:
Do you know people who use Windower? If so, have you called the GM on them since they are using 3rd party software?

Do you know or have you benefited from people who have called out specific "xx%" health for mobs? Examples would be stunning dissapation in Proto Ultima fights. If so, shouldn't you ban yourself for circumventing "game mechanics"?

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

I don't know of specific people who've used Windower (with the possible exception of some of these blogs -- several of them having been already banned for the Salvage-dupes) -- and the only time I've "benefitted from mob %age is the approximation I can make from looking at their life bar -- I can read a bar graph, unlike other people... I don't need an illegal plug-in to have a number next to the bar giving me life percentage.

If I did, I'd have a problem with it.

Perhaps maybe it should be asked if any of you guys could defeat anything above, say, an Aht Urhgan Attercop without some of these exploits...

mpsink said...

You're an idiot, but I'll bite.

Do you know how many things are ToS violations if you go looking hard enough? Its written in legal jargon that was really only made in such a way as to allow loopholes to be covered so SE isn't liable to just ban anyone they want.
Kiting: ToS Violation.
Incidentally, this means your "run away from the mob and hope the anti-MPK triggers to make it deaggro"...can be seen an exploit according to the ToS! Because its using terrain to avoid taking damage from an enemy.
Wanna know the cool part about this, though? Whereas they logged out to avoid possible deaths, the person running away with their mob has the possibility to...MPK another player who is resting, if their mob does happen to deaggro.
MPKing: ToS Violation.

Here's a funny fact about people who go on moral crusades. Usually, if they're real about the facts, they end up having to off themselves in order to stick to their moral standpoint on how things should be.
You're not immune from "cheating" behavior. You're not. If you think you are, you're wrong. If you think I'm wrong about that, you're even more wrong, because its the nature of this /people/, its in every human and its hardcoded into our fucking DNA. This game is not played the way it was made to be played, and SE has stated many times that they /love/ that, they love our innovation.

But I'm sure you'd love to have everyone back in the stone-age of FFXI. Because then everyone is equal! And all the people who actually use means to achieve new things that you deem "disagreeable", are back on the same level as you! Yes. Progress by regression. Instead of improving yourself to be on equal footing as anyone else, instead of finding a way to make it so logging out isn't needed, you'd rather see them all banned, PW not killed, and everyone back the way it was, where you feel like you're not missing out on as much of the game as you actually are.

Your vagina is a land-locked desert filled with scorpions and camel spit. Have a fucking rinse already and stop with your moral tirade about how "things just aren't the way they used to be in the good old days anymore". Next you'll be demanding we get off your fucking grass and shaking your cane at us "whippersnappers".

You want to regulate who does what in what way, go play a fucking single-player game and spare us your self-righteous ramblings and attempts to remove a victory from the whole community because you're a whiny hater.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

mpsink: You're either a cheater or a supporter of cheaters, but I'll bite back, harder!

Do I know how many things are ToS violations if I look hard enough? Absolutely!! And why are they not enforced as such? Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason WoW kicks FFXI's ass in player-base numbers is because of the fact that the game is such a grind for any players who choose to play legitimately??

Ever consider the consequences of those actions? (Of course you haven't.)

I would be interested to see someone charge me with using the anti-MPK as a means of escape -- by the by, it does not use the terrain at all, and the monster can continue to attack if the attacker is in range. (The terrain ruling is vis-a-vis creating a situation where the geometry of the game allows you to attack a monster where it cannot attack you back because of the pure geometry of that particular terrain. Get your rules straight.)

I fully expect someone to trigger an STF on me, for cause or for no cause. If I get banned, I want to see the actual rules, ruling, and relevant logs. But I fully expect to be before that same "Supreme Court" of FFXI because you want me to STFO, GTFO, HAND, and FOAD. So, again, you opened your mouth, I called your bet, show your cards.

Now, as far as the "Stone Age" of FFXI is concerned: Perhaps if the only technological advancement the player base has had is because of cheating and exploits and misconduct, then _YES_, I would like to see FFXI bombed back into the Stone Age. Because, in that event, all advancement in the game technologically was illegally and unjustly gained.

Actually, I'm only using the same terms that Square-Enix has set for what they find "disagreeable". Fact is that, under that scenario, there has been _no true progress_. Again, all progress from the "Stone Age" point will have been illegally and unjustly gained.

If PW was not legally killed, then, for the record, PW should be considered as unkilled. Yes.

Scorpions and camel-spit. That's a new one. That gets you to 4 out of 10 on the flame meter. Better than most...

The only reason I still play FFXI at all is because I know that, if I do leave (as I would, otherwise, probably already have done!), then you get one more honorable person out and can continue to pollute the game with your bullshit.

Averien said...

Logging out does indeed log you out... but where in any sense of the ToS, or in any SE decree, does it say that the purpose of logging out is to stop playing the game?

I log out to mule; I sleep and log out when I'm soloing on Blm and get a few resists (so does every Blm I've ever met, and they have for literally years).

Also note that if you are in a party, and you log out, but someone in your party is still on the hate list when you log in... you are still on it, too. The mechanics of *how* hate is lost when you log out suggests that SE has already considered this tactic.

As already mentioned, creativity isn't a bad thing. It may not be the way that YOU would choose to have things done, but SE has condoned this method. It has been known, and questioned, since Blms first started soloing goblin pets in the earliest days of the game. It's not something knew; it's not something unfair; it's arguably not even something unintended-- again, given the way hate retention *can* stay if you log back in too early.


SE has put the rules in place so that if someone is taking blatant advantage of unintended mechanics that creates an unfair advantage, they can banstick and point to something. But let's be honest-- WoW has rules that aren't enforced. Hell, real life has rules that aren't enforced. The general principle is, "If you aren't hurting yourself, you aren't hurting others, and you aren't screwing with the economy, you probably aren't going to be punished." And yes, risking hurting others is 'hurting others'... maybe not you, but the increased risk over time yadda yadda yadda.

The reason no one's going to report you for stupid shit is-- get this-- it's stupid shit. Are you, by doing whatever the hell you do, interfering with someone else's ability to accomplish their goals in the game? If not, then why the hell should I care what you do? If you're just being a loud-mouth (like you really are), then I can either laugh at your moral-high-horse, or blist you if you are just too annoying to take... but I wouldn't report you because the rules don't exist to create a Nazi-esque regime of legalism-- they exist to help increase over-all enjoyment of the game, by as many people as possible.


Logging out simply logs you out; it doesn't mean you are done playing the damned game.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Averein: I must ask you where your common sense is. You leave the game, then you get your mule, and your mule re-enters -- so that argument doesn't fly.

I am still waiting for someone with one shred of common sense to come up with another valid reason for logging out than to leave the game (as I said, it could be five minutes or five years -- but you are leaving the game).

The sleep-logout trick should be banned from the game. Again, you are logging out to specifically avoid having to take the dirt nap you probably deserve at that point. By the rules, that's an unfair advantage.

No, the mechanics of how hate is lost (that all in the fight have to either be dead or logged -- of course, a factor, in this particular case, is exactly what happens when PW loses all on its emnity list) does not show that SE has considered or allowed this move. All it shows is that such an illegal exploit requires a much more coordinated effort than just one or two players randomly logging out.

Actually, bluntly, under the rules: Creativity is a VERY bad thing in FFXI, when the creativity allows (and, often, encourages and appears to demand jerry-rigging the system to create an unfair advantage for you). I mean, could you kill most anything HNM without some form of an exploit? It appears, from the tripe I'm reading, that a lot of players who assault these monsters can't! The GM's have condoned this method, the people on the official site saw the article from Allakhazam and posted it, but I am calling for an official appeal and review to the Special Task Force because I (and a lot of other people -- they just don't post here!) believe that this is a foul: An illegal win which should subject the fighters to suspension or ban.

SE has put the rules in place, and I'm calling for their enforcement. As for your correlation to real life not enforcing all the rules: There will come a day, very soon, that, if all the rules become abjectly unenforceable that we lose civilization itself. Now, that's a much deeper point than the subject matter at hand, but it doesn't change facts.

The problem is that it does hurt others. As I've said, if Square-Enix allows this "win" to stand, then one has to wonder, at all times, what exploits are allowed, and whether some players have the "juice" or "stroke" to do exploits, while others do not.

This is why, frankly, those of you who wish to report me had better do so. In fact, it could be said that my very presence in Final Fantasy XI damages your ability to play the game, because I'm, frankly, going to call you on your shit. You aren't going to have your precious cheats, exploits, etc. if I have anything to say about it. And, without that, dare I say that most of you wouldn't know how to kill more than an Aht Urhgan Attercop (if you can get that far).

Actually, if logging out doesn't mean "I'm done (at least with this character) for a while...", then, what DOES it mean?

Averien said...

Obviously, to many, it means, "I'm using game mechanics to avoid death." Perhaps not to you; feel free not to use the mechanic. But that hate is retained in some cases but not in others *DOES* mean that it was deliberately coded.

And no, you don't damage anyone's ability to enjoy the game. I enjoy it a lot more when I read people like you; I don't get enough belly laughs, and you really help out on that score.

Given that SE has *frequently* said that they like the creativity players show, the banality of you saying it's a bad thing is mind-numblingly immense. You know what SE wants from their game more than SE does? Because that is the entirety of your post. Stop for a moment, and consider how uselessly egotistical that is of you. You are stating that YOU understand their rules better than *the people who wrote them*.


And no, following all the rules, all the time, isn't going to save civilization, any more than prudent, moderate application of justice is. Remember, there aren't just two virtues-- Justice and Fortitude don't stand alone, regardless what your stance on their importance is. Moderation and prudence also take a role, and that means that when you enforce the rules and laws, you do so in a manner most fitting to the community in question (in this case, of course, the FFXI community).

Please, don't quit. You don't hurt anyone; you don't threaten anyone. You amuse a great many, though. You aren't a prophet of righteousness, nor are your inane squawkings any kind of absolute truth. FFXI isn't in danger because people logged out and back in to win a fight... there are more people playing now than ever. SE has shown where the line is-- griefing, mechanics-hacking, duping, and RMT.



Here's the sad reality of it: no matter *HOW* PW (or, eventually, AV) are beaten, it's going to be by some quirky mechanic. They were *DESIGNED* that way. They are *MEANT* to be defeated by taking advantage of some particular, specific, generally-unused part of the game. No matter what Apathy did, you would be screaming from the rooftops, "YOU'RE EXPLOITING!" And that's what's so funny about you: you can't even accept what SE has to say about their own game. Creativity is a good thing; they have praised the creativity of Apathy in this instance, and no matter how long you hold your breath and make your face blue, they're not going to care what one pathetic, insignificant, petulant little creature of a thing has to say about it.


Please, keep responding-- I'll keep laughing.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Averein: No problem, I'll keep responding, and you can go fuck off.

I mean, seriously, are we degenerating into a fantastical version of Second Life, where the only importance is really the relationships with the other players, and fuck the legitimacy of everything?

If so, I definitely want my money back from over the last five years, because you cocksuckers will have destroyed this game at that point.

(Again, I wouldn't get it back -- but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't say I want it back...)

To me, you are using game mechanics _in ways not intended_ to avoid death. That IS unfair advantage, that IS exploiting, and that IS bannable. You can't deny that being the case. It not only creates the unfair advantage of you being able to kill monsters like Pandemonium Warden, it also creates the unfair advantage of avoiding having to grind out the XP you lose in dying in that situation. That's actionable.

One of the things that I really hope come of this is that the STF goes hardcore and decides that they can get more new players than the old players they lose because the old players get to whine about that the characters they've cheated everyone by don't get to play anymore. I expect, in the next few weeks, another set of significant bannings (not just the normal RMT shit). And I'm sure I'll see more crying on your part, because now you gotta look over you shoulder, because you've been cheating the whole damn time.

Your character is essentially on illegal performance-enhancing steroids, if you want to look at it as such.

The point I make about that I damage your ability to enjoy the game is that you obviously are a cheating punk, and I'm going to expose you and your like as such. Perhaps I need to start looking at going larger than just this blog, and to the larger gaming media -- it appears as if that might be what gets Square-Enix' attention (the potential hit to getting future players).

Creativity, especially as employed by the HAXORZ generation of gamers, is a very bad thing, and I don't believe that's the creativity that Square-Enix is talking about. In fact, bluntly, I think that it's the abject lack of creativity which basically has you in positions where you think the drop rates are shit and decide to break the game completely because that's the only thing gamers like you know how to do anymore! So you are "creative" in ways which destroy the game, and, hence, that's where I say creativity is, in fact, a very BAD THING. Otherwise, bring back the salvage dupers, leave in the exploit, and let everyone have their Monty Haul.

The level of disruption to the game to allow the gamers' creativity to run amok like it has may well have already destroyed FFXI.

Moderation taken to the extreme negates justice. At some point, the hammers have to come down and they have to ALL come down. If, for example, this is the extent of the high-caliber bannings, then I would have to think there would have to be some close examinations of the Terms of Service to see if there is legal remedy for Square-Enix' inconsistencies.

One of my hopes, especially after the 22nd, would be to see 10,000 high level players banned for their cheating (because that number would probably still be only a start), because Square-Enix might finally realize they've moderated too much. FAR too much.

Oh, I don't plan to quit. But don't think that my presence in the game won't threaten people -- if Square-Enix is that arrogant to think that they can just put the banhammers to a few relic and mythic holders and think that's going to satisfy people, they're wrong, and will be exposed publicly, very embarrassingly. That might well stop people from coming into the game, and then you have no game, as attrition makes the game economically unfeasible.

There's a difference between a quirky mechanic WITHIN THE GAME and cheating a game mechanic in ways not intended. If you can't see that difference, then you are precisely the gamer I refer to: You need this hack or that cheat or the other exploit.

Apathy fucking cheated. You would know it if you weren't a fucking cheater yourself. But the ends justify the means, right?

Averien said...

Consider this:

SE was aware of the mechanics, and what happens when logging out, long before PW was created, let alone released.

SE *LOVES* to find quirks of mechanics, and use that as a deliberate tool that you MUST use to win.

SE has publicly lauded Apathy's win.



Yeah, it's a terribly great leap of logic to assume that this could even be the *deliberately designed method to win.*

Creativity, in using *every* game mechanic, SE has praised and lauded. Time and time and time again, the very things you call exploits are praised as innovation. AV is pretty much the only challenge that they have said, "No, this is the mob that you have to beat OUR way."

And y'know what? They brought justice where they have felt it is deserved, and they have NOT been wishy-washy on that in the slightest. ie-- their moderation is in moderation. Duping, ban. Botting, ban. Poshack, ban. RMT, ban. The last dupe-banning for Salvage has put up some legitimate debate on consistency simply because of who was banned vs. who was reprimanded vs. who had no impact at all seemed rather arbitrary...


But utilizing what seems deliberately implemented, long-standing game mechanics against a mob created where this is an innovative solution to a problem (how many other NMs *ever* have used this tactic again?), is not some vile sign of the collapse of civilization.

Thanks for more laughs. Your whining is like candy to my soul.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Averein: Then reverse all the Salvage bannings, restore the gear, and restore Salvage to what it was before the maintenance. If logging hate was the only way to defeat Pandemonium Warden, the design of PW could only be lauded as so poor that it was either unbeatable or the entire ZNM system was designed as a deliberate trap to catch players who would violate the Terms of Service to win the fight, especially if it was, as you assert, possibly the only way to win the fight.

Neither speaks well for the future of FFXI, I think you would agree.

If Square-Enix did as you assert, then the Salvage-dupes would only have to be regarded as another creative way to use game mechanics to the players' advantage. Hence, why would Square-Enix take the ban if creativity was a good thing vis-a-vis farting around with the game mechanics?

Because it isn't. In fact, the "win" over Pandemonium Warden vs. the Salvage bannings places the entire Terms of Service into real question -- as I've said numerous times, it is no longer sufficient to state general statements as to exploits. Specific statements as to which game mechanics are allowed to be fucked with and which are not are going to have to be made, else the only conclusion the players can draw is that certain players have the "juice" to do whatever they want -- and the exodus to WoW accelerates.

They've been completely wishy-washy, even in their application of the first round of Salvage bannings. They either need to throw the banhammers fast and hard (and at an order of magnitude more than that have, for starters), or they need to admit the game in now unenforceable and throw up their hands. (Which they might well be wishing to do, so they can end FFXI and go Rapture full-time...)

Either ban Apathy, or reinstate Salvage-duping. It's the same stuff.

Averien said...

SE has always banned for dupes; that's the golden MMO rule: Thou shalt not dupe. Period.

And the only thing you've said that makes sense-- and I think everyone agrees on this, whether they think bannings were justified at all or not-- is that their application of the salvage bannings were haphazard at best. I, for one, would rather have seen either 100% ban for participation, 100% ban for leaders participating, item deletion for everyone else or, at the very least, item deletion for everyone involved. Some form of consistency in that would have been very nice.


But the cop who pulls you over for going 10 miles over the speed limit-- but who doesn't pull you over for going 5 over-- is still consistent in his application of the law, if he does that for everyone. The cop who never pulls people over for speeding, but pulls you over for a busted tail light, is still consistent.


As far as PW being a poorly designed mob... I doubt that many would disagree. Relying upon obscure, poorly understood game mechanics is going to piss people off. But pure, brute power isn't going to defeat AV, or PW. We know this, because people have more plain, brute power now than they did when AV was released, and using it resulted in an AV buff. Every legitimate, standard tactic in the game has been thrown at AV; whatever is left is some obscure, unknown mechanic. Why is is unrealistic to think that a similar obscure, underused (or unused) mechanic was applied to PW?


Again, given that SE has demonstrated a love of the obscure, has routinely and regularly complimented players' creativity, has remained consistent in what is a bannable offense vs. what isn't, that SE has *promoted this victory as an achievement weeks after it was accomplished, leaving ample time to review any misconduct*... I'm just curious what kind of wheel chair you use, because you don't have a leg to stand on.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Averein: The problem is that they need to ban for a lot more than just dupes, or start actually rewriting their ToS in a form they can actually enforce. Right now, there is no reason to believe that the rules are basically not enforced on absolute whim on whoever Square-Enix feels like. That's a sham game, at this point.

My point is that the entire game has fallen to sham (even in Square-Enix' eyes) because their entire enforcement structure has gone so haphazard (maybe because they don't care anymore) that the game has fallen to effective anarchy.

The only reason the cops can't pull you over for 5 over, in most jurisdictions, is the sensitivity of the radar and the precision it can measure speeds at in that context. If one could precisely radar speed to the number, they'd pull you over for 5 over.

The thing is that Square-Enix can go after all of the players if it really wants to -- why it doesn't... I don't know, and it does not speak well for them as a company or FFXI as a game.

There's a difference between an obscure mechanic and an illegal one. Keep that in mind as you discuss PW.

tarothin said...

Just to begin with, gonna try and avoid flaming so would appreciate the same.

I'm mainly going to address the whole idea of logging hate = exploit. As a main blm, this is kind of standard practice for me and it's really the crux of this whole issue anyways.

Just as background, pre official windower I always played full screen and I still only use the official windower. I have done some salvage, am in an HNMLS, don't bot personally but know people who bot/use windower/plugs/etc...

You mention above that there is only one purpose to logging out, to leave FFXI, and to do so for any other reason is a breach of the rules. How do you judge intent however? What if I'm in the middle of fighting something but for whatever reason I really need to log right now. Am I not allowed to sleep it and log out so I can go do whatever it is I need to do or am I obliged to let it kill me as I afk? Even though I'm not logging for the sole purpose of losing hate, it happens in the process. More specifically to this case, I'm not sure hate is even the reason they log out. The reason is simply to not be there, essentially the definition of being logged out in thise game. Timing of it aside, the purpose of logging out was actually to leave FFXI, if only for a brief period of time.

I also personally believe the 30 second countdown is SE's way of preventing abuse from logout. It's essentially their way of saying, if you can make it to 30, you're home free. Hence why logging out in mog, a totally safe area is instant. Though you could possibly argue cities should be also, I can't really give an explanation for that.

If you're going to argue that any action may only do what it's explicitly stated to do that also opens up a whole can of worms. Most actions in this game generate hate regardless of their intended purpose. Does that mean the use of any action to generate hate rather than the described purpose is an exploit? Most tanking is based upon casting spells or doing actions to generate hate rather than for their intended purpose. A pld or rdm casting flash/sleep/bind/etc... isn't actually trying to blind/sleep/bind the mob, is this an eploit as well? Some plds even have setups where they reduce their hp and than bring it back up so they have hp to cure to generate hate. They're not really curing themselves because they need it but to generate more hate.

One more concrete example that could happen to you as a bst. (Just wanting to say I've only lvled bst some, 50ish, so not sure how realistic this scenario is) Say you're kind of randomly running around as bst, maybe half naked because you were on some other job and didn't bother to get gear. EMish, T mob aggs you, let's say two just for the sake of it. You can tame one, now what about the other. I would imagine you charm it and just leave it, done. However this seems to be an exploit as you are not using charm for it's intended purpose (to charm) but rather to lose hate on a mob. I suppose that you could just try and zone but that's exploiting game mechanics as well, taking advantage of the fact that mobs cannot cross zone boundaries to save your life. Does this mean you have to die in this case even though you could have saved your life with no problem at all?

Personally, I generally use sleeping/logging on mobs as a matter of convenience more often than not. As a blm I can generally kill most things I'm able to sleep anyways. However if I'm actually just heading somewhere and this happened on the way, I don't really want to bother with the additional time to kill something that just agged me. I don't have that much time to play nowadays so I'd really rather not waste an extra 10 whatever mins on a mob I don't have any reason to kill.

Oh and just because you keep mentioning the TOS, the item you quote is from the Q&A section of the POL site, and while useful as reference, does not actually exist anywhere in the TOS as far as I've been able to tell. If it's in there somewhere and I'm just missing it, please post the reference for me.

Semi unrelated to this, in your comments on the previous thread, you mention SE's stock price a number of times. Just out of curiosity I went and looked it up, SE's stock seems to be following the general trend of the NIKKEI and doesn't seem particularly low. I suspect the delays on FFXIII and DQ have had a larger effect on stock than FFXI. Also, as a reference, I looked up Activision Blizzard just to see how it'd been doing. It shows about the same percentage drop as SE in the past year (around 50%). While video games themselves are doing reasonably well, the stock prices are absolutely no indication of this as there's just too much fear in general.

Sorry if I'm a little long winded, too many posts/comments/everything, lol. And I'll probably be slow to reply to this as I don't live in the US atm so loltimezones, just a forewarning.

tarothin said...

Bah, forgot one thing I wanted to add.

Have you always felt this way about the whole logging hate thing and the PW issue just threw it into the light or did it just start afterwards?

Also, I'm curious what other things you consider to be bannable exploits that don't involve 3rd party tools. Just curious how your views compare to mine.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

tarothin: I will try to keep this civil. It's just getting harder and harder as the player-base exposes itself as a bunch of freaking frauds who don't care if they (have) kill(ed) this game.

You mention above that there is only one purpose to logging out, to leave FFXI, and to do so for any other reason is a breach of the rules. How do you judge intent however?

A lot of these people have openly stated their intent as an exploitative maneuver.

What if I'm in the middle of fighting something but for whatever reason I really need to log right now. Am I not allowed to sleep it and log out so I can go do whatever it is I need to do or am I obliged to let it kill me as I afk?

How about sleep it and _RUN_?

Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed, I'm afraid, and you can thank those who openly have exploited it for their own means for that "privilege". (Not a flame on you -- on them, instead.)

The point I'm making in that regard is that, though you may be attempting to leave the game in means I would consider legitimate, the problem here is that there has been so much rampant abuse of the system that Square-Enix needs to come down hard on it and basically say that the practice is not allowed.

And if you have to get that XP back, well...

Even though I'm not logging for the sole purpose of losing hate, it happens in the process. More specifically to this case, I'm not sure hate is even the reason they log out. The reason is simply to not be there, essentially the definition of being logged out in thise game. Timing of it aside, the purpose of logging out was actually to leave FFXI, if only for a brief period of time.

But they would not do it at all if it weren't for an open game advantage, which, by the stated definitions in the rule, is an unfair advantage by the Terms of Service, and, hence, a bannable offense.

I also personally believe the 30 second countdown is SE's way of preventing abuse from logout. It's essentially their way of saying, if you can make it to 30, you're home free. Hence why logging out in mog, a totally safe area is instant. Though you could possibly argue cities should be also, I can't really give an explanation for that.

It's an argument I've heard, but, as we've all seen, it doesn't stop the abuse. (Present cities and Whitegate probably could be included as safe as immediate logout zones. Past cities (as potential battlegrounds) and Al Zahbi (Besieged) are another matter.) I understand that Square-Enix might not have foreseen what kinds of abuse the players would come up with in that regard when they felt a 30-second time-out would be sufficient. But that doesn't change that it's an abusive exploit for unfair game advantage.

If you're going to argue that any action may only do what it's explicitly stated to do that also opens up a whole can of worms. Most actions in this game generate hate regardless of their intended purpose. Does that mean the use of any action to generate hate rather than the described purpose is an exploit?

That's an interesting question, though, in that realm, I would think that a relevant action in the battle would be taken as an action with respect to the battle (be it enfeebling the monster, etc.), and the hate taken as a side effect.

It is not, however, a vacuous question to ask whether that, too, might be considered an exploit. (There are those who believe the entire concept of kiting is an exploit.) This is the kind of discussion which, now, must take place as long as Square-Enix is completely inconsistent and silent about what is an exploit and what is not. (Or does it care?)

The BST example: Charm one and have it attack the other and run -- if you can't, you eat it and quickly. If you have only one, you could Charm it, Familiar, and then have it tank a bunch a stuff or something.

(Understand, also, that Charm, for sentient beings, is simply a bind effect as it hits. So a certain amount of that might, in fact, be intended.)

Zoning to lose hate is an intended use of zoning. You're getting the Hell out of there. :)

Oh and just because you keep mentioning the TOS, the item you quote is from the Q&A section of the POL site, and while useful as reference, does not actually exist anywhere in the TOS as far as I've been able to tell. If it's in there somewhere and I'm just missing it, please post the reference for me.

I'll check it, though I think that was actually taken as to be part of the Terms of Service by its inclusion in those manners. It's somewhere that it is the official rules of the game.

Semi unrelated to this, in your comments on the previous thread, you mention SE's stock price a number of times. Just out of curiosity I went and looked it up, SE's stock seems to be following the general trend of the NIKKEI and doesn't seem particularly low. I suspect the delays on FFXIII and DQ have had a larger effect on stock than FFXI. Also, as a reference, I looked up Activision Blizzard just to see how it'd been doing. It shows about the same percentage drop as SE in the past year (around 50%). While video games themselves are doing reasonably well, the stock prices are absolutely no indication of this as there's just too much fear in general.

Though that is true, it is what Square-Enix is doing with respect to their current stock position which is the concerning situation here. You're right that I said about it individually, but when Elmer the Pointy posted the comments from Square-Enix' report, that added another dimension to all of this.

Have you always felt this way about the whole logging hate thing and the PW issue just threw it into the light or did it just start afterwards?

Also, I'm curious what other things you consider to be bannable exploits that don't involve 3rd party tools. Just curious how your views compare to mine.


I wasn't aware of the massive extent of cheating in some of these manners until I actually took a look at a lot of these and basically started comparing these to the Salvage dupers.

I think I addressed a good list of proposed exploits that Kaeko came up with in an earlier blog post of mine. You might want to take a quick scan and get a look.

tarothin said...

A lot of these people have openly stated their intent as an exploitative maneuver.

Was more of saying how do programmers or GM's determine this. This is after all one of the reasons that reporting MPK has always been tough unless it was really blatant. You can always claim you were doing something else to the GM (We all take a bathroom break every 10 minutes) and it's hard for them to really do anything about it.

How about sleep it and _RUN_?

I specifically stated that I need to log right now. I don't mean in 5 minutes, I mean actually now, lol. I've had cases where I hit logout and didn't have time to even make sure I'd logged out safely. Actually came back dead once but those are the breaks. If I had time to run it wouldn't be a problem.

That's an interesting question, though, in that realm, I would think that a relevant action in the battle would be taken as an action with respect to the battle (be it enfeebling the monster, etc.), and the hate taken as a side effect.

I'm actually referring specifically to cases where these actions are being used SOLELY to generate hate. rdm/nin tanking is pretty much entirely based on this type of play.

It is not, however, a vacuous question to ask whether that, too, might be considered an exploit. (There are those who believe the entire concept of kiting is an exploit.) This is the kind of discussion which, now, must take place as long as Square-Enix is completely inconsistent and silent about what is an exploit and what is not. (Or does it care?)

I've actually found SE to be fairly consistent about what they do and do not punish as an exploit. They generally tend to care more about things that directly affect the game or items in the game (like the salvage duping), and less about things like windower which, while giving additional benefits to the player generally do not affect others or anything in the game directly. There's actually a japanese interview where they talk about why they don't crack down on windower for this reason, they have their priorities. I can post the link if you want but yeah, it's totally in japanese, lol.

The BST example: Charm one and have it attack the other and run -- if you can't, you eat it and quickly. If you have only one, you could Charm it, Familiar, and then have it tank a bunch a stuff or something.

(Understand, also, that Charm, for sentient beings, is simply a bind effect as it hits. So a certain amount of that might, in fact, be intended.)

Zoning to lose hate is an intended use of zoning. You're getting the Hell out of there. :)


But by charming it you lose all hate on it, hence you're exploiting the fact that charm deletes hate when a mob gets charmed rather than using it for it's intended purpose.

The same applies to zoning, the intended use of zoning is not to "get the Hell out of there", it's to move from zone to zone. By zoning an agg/link, you are exploiting the game system which doesn't allow mobs to move from zone to zone freely.

I'll check it, though I think that was actually taken as to be part of the Terms of Service by its inclusion in those manners. It's somewhere that it is the official rules of the game.

This part will be kind of long. I poked around the Q&A site a bit and I found another article which tries to describe "taking advantage..." in greater detail (Q12267). It actually does a horrible job of it but at the end it says if you're not sure, consult a GM. While you do get some contradictions from how each GM responds, I can pretty much guarantee you that 10/10 GM's will say it's not an exploit. And by your logic, anything in the Q&A section is as strong as TOS so that should be enough.

Also, it strikes me that your quote from Q12652 can actually be interpreted in two ways. The first, your way, is that you're not supposed to take advantage of valid game mechnics in improper ways. The 2nd is that you're not supposed to take advantage of game mechanics which are not valid to begin with. The salvage dupe is a perfect example of this, the game mechanics allowed it to happen, but the duping that resulted from it was a bug which never should have existed in the first place.

Because of this, I decided to check out the japanese Q&A site to see what it looks like in what I assume would be the original japanese. I think it's pretty safe to assume this was originally written in japanese and translated into english, another thing which could cause possible errors (and yes, I'm fluent in japanese). The short of it is that the japanese site refers to it a little more succinctly, as just "Misuse of flaws". In the version which further clarifies what constitues "Misuse of flaws" (Q12667), it specifically states that the flaws it's referring to are flaws within the actual program itself (aka bugs) and not misuse of valid game mechanics. This would invalidate the whole argument as what you're talking about would no longer even fall under the conditions for banning.

I think I addressed a good list of proposed exploits that Kaeko came up with in an earlier blog post of mine. You might want to take a quick scan and get a look.

I was more curious about things that you personally have seen. I looked at your other post and based upon the experience you say you have with endgame, the logout thing is the only thing I could see applying to you personally. Most are also very specific cases unlike sleep logging which can be done anywhere by anyone with the spell. Like I mentioned in a totally different post, most people will never touch end game, something like sleep logging can possibly affect anybody with the ability to cast sleep (you excluded) and would cover the vast majority FF players. I just wonder if you have any items you consider exploits which are this general and wide spread.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Was more of saying how do programmers or GM's determine this. This is after all one of the reasons that reporting MPK has always been tough unless it was really blatant. You can always claim you were doing something else to the GM (We all take a bathroom break every 10 minutes) and it's hard for them to really do anything about it.

Which is basically why they need to start looking at the logs and assuming guilt unless proven otherwise. Thank the other players for spitting all over the rules for that reversal.

I specifically stated that I need to log right now. I don't mean in 5 minutes, I mean actually now, lol. I've had cases where I hit logout and didn't have time to even make sure I'd logged out safely. Actually came back dead once but those are the breaks. If I had time to run it wouldn't be a problem.

Dirt nap, then. Sorry, but the game reminds you not to forget your real life before you log in. If something interferes (and it's happened to me more than a few times), then you take the XP hit and you get back on the saddle the next time you play.

If your life is not stable enough that you can count on that not happening often, then don't log into FFXI. Square-Enix wouldn't want you there under those circumstances.

I'm actually referring specifically to cases where these actions are being used SOLELY to generate hate. rdm/nin tanking is pretty much entirely based on this type of play.

It needs to be investigated or made clear what is legal and what is not. There are those who say that kiting, in and of itself, is an illegal exploit of hate mechanics.

It's time for Square-Enix to be abjectly clear, since the players will take any little illegal advantage and rape the game for everything they find important (all the leet gear they can spit you in the face over).

This part will be kind of long. I poked around the Q&A site a bit and I found another article which tries to describe "taking advantage..." in greater detail (Q12267). It actually does a horrible job of it but at the end it says if you're not sure, consult a GM. While you do get some contradictions from how each GM responds, I can pretty much guarantee you that 10/10 GM's will say it's not an exploit. And by your logic, anything in the Q&A section is as strong as TOS so that should be enough.

Then either the 10/10 GM's are wrong, or they need to rewrite the ToS, because the rulings and the written materials are not consistent -- in fact, they contradict!

I'm sick and tired of seeing game companies basically smash their own rules in the name of financial survival. If they aren't willing to enforce their rules, then they need to shut the game down.

Also, it strikes me that your quote from Q12652 can actually be interpreted in two ways. The first, your way, is that you're not supposed to take advantage of valid game mechnics in improper ways. The 2nd is that you're not supposed to take advantage of game mechanics which are not valid to begin with. The salvage dupe is a perfect example of this, the game mechanics allowed it to happen, but the duping that resulted from it was a bug which never should have existed in the first place.

Correct, but the first part of it also covers what a lot of people want to get on my ass about -- sleep logging and logging hate are both illegal unfair game advantages because the players are too lazy to take the hit and lose the fight. They basically cannot win without some form of cheating (be it against an unanticipated aggressor or a wipe through Astral Flow...).

I mean, are (collective) you that afraid of having to make up that XP hit that you have to cheat?

The problem is, though, we're not simply talking about a "misuse of flaws". We are talking about the use of game mechanics in ways they were not intended. There's a difference.

I was more curious about things that you personally have seen. I looked at your other post and based upon the experience you say you have with endgame, the logout thing is the only thing I could see applying to you personally. Most are also very specific cases unlike sleep logging which can be done anywhere by anyone with the spell. Like I mentioned in a totally different post, most people will never touch end game, something like sleep logging can possibly affect anybody with the ability to cast sleep (you excluded) and would cover the vast majority FF players. I just wonder if you have any items you consider exploits which are this general and wide spread.

As I said, I try to avoid playing with other players whenever possible -- so that's why I look at the list and start there. The use of Windower and illegal third-party programs (including bots) needs to be clamped down on, no matter how many banhammers come down.

tarothin said...

Which is basically why they need to start looking at the logs and assuming guilt unless proven otherwise. Thank the other players for spitting all over the rules for that reversal.

Logs themselves are not that reliable truthfully, too much is done over voice chat nowadays. And if you start assuming guilt then they have to be like you and assume everyone on the server is guilty. That WILL kill the game and put them out of business which they have no interest in I'm pretty sure.

Dirt nap, then. Sorry, but the game reminds you not to forget your real life before you log in. If something interferes (and it's happened to me more than a few times), then you take the XP hit and you get back on the saddle the next time you play.

If your life is not stable enough that you can count on that not happening often, then don't log into FFXI. Square-Enix wouldn't want you there under those circumstances.


You're drifting away from the subject, so you're saying I'm not allowed to use logging out even though my primary purpose is to log out just because I happen to have hate? I guess this thought stops here because I just can't agree with that logic at all.

It needs to be investigated or made clear what is legal and what is not. There are those who say that kiting, in and of itself, is an illegal exploit of hate mechanics.

It's time for Square-Enix to be abjectly clear, since the players will take any little illegal advantage and rape the game for everything they find important (all the leet gear they can spit you in the face over).


Again, they have made things perfectly clear in the past, this was simply the biggest and most visible banning. They've banned for warp/flee hacking, exploiting of bugs, third party tools in the past, it just hasn't been quite so noticeable.

Also, you've totally ignored the two points I made about BST and zoning, please address them as I would imagine they are both things you have done in the past.

Then either the 10/10 GM's are wrong, or they need to rewrite the ToS, because the rulings and the written materials are not consistent -- in fact, they contradict!

I'm sick and tired of seeing game companies basically smash their own rules in the name of financial survival. If they aren't willing to enforce their rules, then they need to shut the game down.


Give me a specific concrete example where they contradict then. I've already written earlier about how the case of logging hate doesn't even fall under this category so explain how there is any contradiction.

Correct, but the first part of it also covers what a lot of people want to get on my ass about -- sleep logging and logging hate are both illegal unfair game advantages because the players are too lazy to take the hit and lose the fight. They basically cannot win without some form of cheating (be it against an unanticipated aggressor or a wipe through Astral Flow...).

The problem is, though, we're not simply talking about a "misuse of flaws". We are talking about the use of game mechanics in ways they were not intended. There's a difference.


You're missing my point, I didn't say that both interpretations are correct, I'm saying that your interpretation is not what they meant when they wrote it. The "misuse of flaws" is the original japanese, it's what they meant when they wrote it, it just didn't come out as clear cut in english. Let me show you.

Yours: Players who take advantage of "in-game mechanics", not intended as normal means of game play

Closer to Japanese: Players who take advantage of "in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play"

I mean, are (collective) you that afraid of having to make up that XP hit that you have to cheat?

It has nothing to do with being afraid of XP loss (heck if I can sleep something I can kill it, it's more a waste of time then anything), it's how people view the rules. I look at the TOS and I don't see anything in it that would classify it as cheating. If it were iffy, that's the whole point of having GM's to clarify. So if you cannot accept the GM's rulings than that just means you can't play be SE's rules as THEY define them.

As I said, I try to avoid playing with other players whenever possible -- so that's why I look at the list and start there. The use of Windower and illegal third-party programs (including bots) needs to be clamped down on, no matter how many banhammers come down.

Well, the third party programs have always been the easy target, that's why I didn't include it in the question from the beginning. There's no grey area about that. I just only care about the hate logging idea. You avoid other players, so had you ever even personally seen hate logging before you heard about it through PW? You obviously don't do it yourself. If you had seen other people did you GM them right then as you consider it a bannable offense.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Logs themselves are not that reliable truthfully, too much is done over voice chat nowadays. And if you start assuming guilt then they have to be like you and assume everyone on the server is guilty. That WILL kill the game and put them out of business which they have no interest in I'm pretty sure.

Once the rules of the game become unenforceable, the game needs to be shut down, for that precise reason. If Square-Enix, at any point, becomes unable or unwilling to enforce the rules, they have to pull the plug, even if doing so now is only to try to retain a player base for later projects.

The game has seriously degraded in the last 18 months into a cheater-fest. There can be no denying this.

The player-base has spoken, and wants a no-rules, me-first playground where the little boys and girls can beat the shit out of the people they want to feel superior than, chasing them from Final Fantasy XI entirely.

Sales vis-a-vis FFXI have already dropped 25% from March-December 2007 to 2008. (And the big-time recession didn't really start until September!)

This stuff is already happening.

You're drifting away from the subject, so you're saying I'm not allowed to use logging out even though my primary purpose is to log out just because I happen to have hate? I guess this thought stops here because I just can't agree with that logic at all.

It's an unfair advantage by the rules stated. There is only ONE purpose to logging out - to leave. Any in-game advantage purpose to logging out is an illegal unfair advantage by the rules which Square-Enix has set.

Logging hate? Illegal.

Sleep-logging?? Illegal.

And see above if it's so prevalent that it cannot be enforced. The game becomes a sham at that point.

If your primary purpose to log out is because you have hate you can't shake, you're committing an illegal act.

Give me a specific concrete example where they contradict then. I've already written earlier about how the case of logging hate doesn't even fall under this category so explain how there is any contradiction.

First off, you're wrong. It does fall under an illegal exploit. You explain to me, then, what purpose logging out has other than leaving the game.

You've already given other contradictions: The PW "victory", the rampant use of Windower... Either Square-Enix has started the crackdown (they don't think FFXI is survivable _anyway_), or the game really won't be survivable except for a few children who want to see someone kill themselves RL because they didn't get the O-hat that someone hacked the lot on.

(And don't think I don't believe that to be going on too.)

You're missing my point, I didn't say that both interpretations are correct, I'm saying that your interpretation is not what they meant when they wrote it. The "misuse of flaws" is the original japanese, it's what they meant when they wrote it, it just didn't come out as clear cut in english. Let me show you.

Yours: Players who take advantage of "in-game mechanics", not intended as normal means of game play

Closer to Japanese: Players who take advantage of "in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play"


Again, that can still be interpreted to mean taking the in-game mechanics which exist and pervert them to unfair advantages on the part of the players.

This is WHY a lot of these discussions took place after the January 22nd LM17's, because now people woke up and realized the entire way they've been playing the game is probably illegal!

It has nothing to do with being afraid of XP loss (heck if I can sleep something I can kill it, it's more a waste of time then anything), it's how people view the rules. I look at the TOS and I don't see anything in it that would classify it as cheating. If it were iffy, that's the whole point of having GM's to clarify. So if you cannot accept the GM's rulings than that just means you can't play be SE's rules as THEY define them.

No, it means SE's rules become unenforceable and the game is a sham. That's why the game has degraded so badly lately, both in-game and infrastructurally. Square-Enix may no longer care to put out a legitimate game.

I mean, what would stop these punks from deliberate DoS attacks on players they don't like? NOTHING!!

Well, the third party programs have always been the easy target, that's why I didn't include it in the question from the beginning. There's no grey area about that. I just only care about the hate logging idea. You avoid other players, so had you ever even personally seen hate logging before you heard about it through PW? You obviously don't do it yourself. If you had seen other people did you GM them right then as you consider it a bannable offense.

No I have not, but I would GM them if I saw it and could be clear as to what it was.

tarothin said...

Once the rules of the game become unenforceable, the game needs to be shut down, for that precise reason. If Square-Enix, at any point, becomes unable or unwilling to enforce the rules, they have to pull the plug, even if doing so now is only to try to retain a player base for later projects.

The game has seriously degraded in the last 18 months into a cheater-fest. There can be no denying this.

The player-base has spoken, and wants a no-rules, me-first playground where the little boys and girls can beat the shit out of the people they want to feel superior than, chasing them from Final Fantasy XI entirely.

It's an unfair advantage by the rules stated. There is only ONE purpose to logging out - to leave. Any in-game advantage purpose to logging out is an illegal unfair advantage by the rules which Square-Enix has set.

Logging hate? Illegal.

Sleep-logging?? Illegal.

And see above if it's so prevalent that it cannot be enforced. The game becomes a sham at that point.

If your primary purpose to log out is because you have hate you can't shake, you're committing an illegal act.

No, it means SE's rules become unenforceable and the game is a sham. That's why the game has degraded so badly lately, both in-game and infrastructurally. Square-Enix may no longer care to put out a legitimate game.


Since you responded to half of my topics with rants about unenforceable rules, I'm going to combine this all together.

The rules are not unenforceable. However this is SE's game, they are the ones to determine the rules, not you. They enforce the rules, but the don't neccesarily agree with YOUR interpretation of the rules. SE creates the rules and if they state that the rules have not been broken then you have no grounds to disagree because THEY DECIDE what the rules are.

I mean, what would stop these punks from deliberate DoS attacks on players they don't like? NOTHING!!

I laughed at this a little. This is far beyond the scope of any video game company, neither WoW nor any video game could possibly do anything to prevent DoS attacks on someone, it's totally out of scope for them.

Sales vis-a-vis FFXI have already dropped 25% from March-December 2007 to 2008. (And the big-time recession didn't really start until September!)

You can't just pick two numbers out of there and not take account any context at all. First of all, WoTG was released during 2007 so of course sales will be higher during that year. There has been no major software release like that so all money is coming purely from subscription money (and maybe from events, who knows how they really calculate). Second of all, raw cash flow is a much less interesting number then actual income after expenses. For 2008, it was 4572, for 2007, 4702. This is an approximate 3% decrease, some of which could be attributed to the the drop in the exchange rate. Either way it's not a significant change in actual profit.

Again, that can still be interpreted to mean taking the in-game mechanics which exist and pervert them to unfair advantages on the part of the players.

No it can't because the very mechanic itself is not meant to exist. Logging out is obviously a mechanic that is supposed to exist in the game therefore it is not covered by this statement.

Also, please look at Q12267 again, because it speficially says that if you're unsure if something is covered by this statement then a GM will settle the issue. Remember, these are not the rules as you define the, they are the rules SE defines, therfore they have the final call on what is or is not legal.

And once again, you didn't respond to my bst and zoning examples, I'm going to paste them again here because I really want to see what you have to say about them.

But by charming it you lose all hate on it, hence you're exploiting the fact that charm deletes hate when a mob gets charmed rather than using it for it's intended purpose.

The same applies to zoning, the intended use of zoning is not to "get the Hell out of there", it's to move from zone to zone. By zoning an agg/link, you are exploiting the game system which doesn't allow mobs to move from zone to zone freely.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

Ah, one more before I go to bed: Tarothin:

Since you responded to half of my topics with rants about unenforceable rules, I'm going to combine this all together.

One of the major points I've tried to make is that the moment the rules of the game become unenforceable, the game becomes sham.

If Square-Enix is unable (or, worse, unwilling) to enforce the rules they set out themselves, then one has to wonder why one bothers playing by the rules, or playing at all...

I feel insulted and spat upon for wanting to actually abide by the rules of the game (and I felt that before I started posting about it here).

The rules are not unenforceable. However this is SE's game, they are the ones to determine the rules, not you. They enforce the rules, but the don't neccesarily agree with YOUR interpretation of the rules. SE creates the rules and if they state that the rules have not been broken then you have no grounds to disagree because THEY DECIDE what the rules are.

Yes I do have grounds to disagree. They ask us for our feedback and I give it to them. If they don't like it, they can toss my ass.

This is not a matter, however, of them deciding what the rules are -- it's a matter of them deciding (almost capriciously or even at random) when those rules get enforced. Either enforce the rules or abolish them. But once you abolish them, the game becomes so unworkable that it's better to shut it down before chaos basically kills customers for the company's other products.

I laughed at this a little. This is far beyond the scope of any video game company, neither WoW nor any video game could possibly do anything to prevent DoS attacks on someone, it's totally out of scope for them.

So the punks can just do what they want, eh? Glad you want to play in a game like that. I don't.

You can't just pick two numbers out of there and not take account any context at all. First of all, WoTG was released during 2007 so of course sales will be higher during that year. There has been no major software release like that so all money is coming purely from subscription money (and maybe from events, who knows how they really calculate). Second of all, raw cash flow is a much less interesting number then actual income after expenses. For 2008, it was 4572, for 2007, 4702. This is an approximate 3% decrease, some of which could be attributed to the the drop in the exchange rate. Either way it's not a significant change in actual profit.

I didn't pick the numbers out at random. They were there in that bar graph. Revenue for FFXI dropped 25% in the same timeframe in which non-FFXI online division revenue leaped 175%! You would think that WotG packs would not account for 25% of the company's entire sales for the nine-month period, especially for a company bringing in somewhere north of 600 million yen a month in monthly fees...

No it can't because the very mechanic itself is not meant to exist. Logging out is obviously a mechanic that is supposed to exist in the game therefore it is not covered by this statement.

It is an administrative game mechanic. It is meant as an administrative part of the game, and an administrative part of the game alone. It is to have no merit on the game itself, unless Square-Enix wants to rescind that logging out is simply an administrative mechanic. It is meant to deal with the administrative task of having you leave the game. It is, otherwise, not within the game.

I hope that explains the position more clearly.

As far as GM's go, I can still call for the Special Task Force to look at anything that I see wrong with the game. Any player has that right. They may never see the results of such a discussion, but the GM is only final ruling if the player accepts the GM's ruling.

I do not, in the case of Apathy and Pandemonium Warden, for I find it completely and effectively inconsistent with previous rulings, such as the Salvage dupes (one person the LBR LM17 LBN said it best: What if that was a "feature" to increase the drops? We know it wasn't, but, then, what's the difference here?)

Again, they are taking an administrative game mechanic and trying to pervert it to an unfair game advantage.

But by charming it you lose all hate on it, hence you're exploiting the fact that charm deletes hate when a mob gets charmed rather than using it for it's intended purpose.

Provided the charm hits (and, as I presume you have here, the mob is charmable). The charm is an attack, and will gain hate to you if it fails.

The same applies to zoning, the intended use of zoning is not to "get the Hell out of there", it's to move from zone to zone. By zoning an agg/link, you are exploiting the game system which doesn't allow mobs to move from zone to zone freely.

Then report it to the Special Task Force.

tarothin said...

One of the major points I've tried to make is that the moment the rules of the game become unenforceable, the game becomes sham.

If Square-Enix is unable (or, worse, unwilling) to enforce the rules they set out themselves, then one has to wonder why one bothers playing by the rules, or playing at all...

I feel insulted and spat upon for wanting to actually abide by the rules of the game (and I felt that before I started posting about it here).


And my major counterpoint is the rules are enforceable and are in fact enforced. Third party aside (if you've kept track, there's been this whole cat and mouse thing about stuff like windower, SE makes fixes, other side makes fixes, they do try but it's much harder than you seem to think unless they actually install their own third party programs to detect stuff), they do enforce their rules. Give me an example where they don't. And you can't use logging hate as an example because according to SE this does not break the rules.

Yes I do have grounds to disagree. They ask us for our feedback and I give it to them. If they don't like it, they can toss my ass.

This is not a matter, however, of them deciding what the rules are -- it's a matter of them deciding (almost capriciously or even at random) when those rules get enforced. Either enforce the rules or abolish them. But once you abolish them, the game becomes so unworkable that it's better to shut it down before chaos basically kills customers for the company's other products.


No, you have the right to disagree, but SE has no obligation whatsoever to take you seriously. You could say your money should say something to them but well, money does talk and you're a lone account among many.

It is their right to decide when and where to enforce the rules. Perhaps there's a little too much capriciousness about it, but that's the difference between just talking on a blog and actually running a succesful business.

So the punks can just do what they want, eh? Glad you want to play in a game like that. I don't.

I'm sorry, do you know anything about the mechanics of doing a DoS attack? It occurs entirely between whatever botnet the attacker uses and the person on the receiving end. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with FFXI's network or the game program. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for any game company to monitor or control this type of activity

I didn't pick the numbers out at random. They were there in that bar graph. Revenue for FFXI dropped 25% in the same timeframe in which non-FFXI online division revenue leaped 175%! You would think that WotG packs would not account for 25% of the company's entire sales for the nine-month period, especially for a company bringing in somewhere north of 600 million yen a month in monthly fees...

Well, using assuming most of the active subscribership buys the game that's around 1 1/2 to 2 months worth of monthly fees right there, so that's a good 900-1200M yen right there. Also for some reason the expansion's really expensive in Japan (2500-4000yen). Also, right after the release of WoTG there was a large influx of RMT taking advantage of certain quests and what not. They've managed to largly crack down on RMT so this type of one time income is also less common now. It's of course impossible for us to know exactly how much money gets back to SE from various purchases, but the one thing they do list is the bottom line and that's still solid.

And man, the non-FFXI online was like fricking tiny in 2007, lol. Any growth at all would show up as enormous for them.

It is an administrative game mechanic. It is meant as an administrative part of the game, and an administrative part of the game alone. It is to have no merit on the game itself, unless Square-Enix wants to rescind that logging out is simply an administrative mechanic. It is meant to deal with the administrative task of having you leave the game. It is, otherwise, not within the game.

SE has never specifically stated anywhere that it is an administrative mechanic so there is nothing for them to rescind. That also makes the rest of your statement assumption rather than fact.

As far as GM's go, I can still call for the Special Task Force to look at anything that I see wrong with the game. Any player has that right. They may never see the results of such a discussion, but the GM is only final ruling if the player accepts the GM's ruling.

That's within your right, but I have to take offence at you calling people cheaters (myself included) based upon something which all evidence points to SE considering valid play. If the STF gets back to you and agrees with you then that's fine, we're all cheaters, but until then you have no official basis for calling this tactic cheating.

I do not, in the case of Apathy and Pandemonium Warden, for I find it completely and effectively inconsistent with previous rulings, such as the Salvage dupes (one person the LBR LM17 LBN said it best: What if that was a "feature" to increase the drops? We know it wasn't, but, then, what's the difference here?)

That's why you consult the GM's in the first place (and I seriously don't believe the people who say they reported it.), if you're still not sure get a 2nd opinion or call in a senior, that's what they're there for, to clarify "features" vs bugs. If this had been reported early on and fixed then this whole bs would have never even happened.

Provided the charm hits (and, as I presume you have here, the mob is charmable). The charm is an attack, and will gain hate to you if it fails.

However you're not using it for that purpose, you're using it to lose hate. Just like logging hate, you still log but it's all about intent.

Then report it to the Special Task Force.

Why would I report it? You're the one who considers logging an exploit, I think both this and logging are fine. I just want to see how you can possibly argue out of this. Otherwise you're just in the same cheating boat as the rest of us.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

And my major counterpoint is the rules are enforceable and are in fact enforced. Third party aside (if you've kept track, there's been this whole cat and mouse thing about stuff like windower, SE makes fixes, other side makes fixes, they do try but it's much harder than you seem to think unless they actually install their own third party programs to detect stuff), they do enforce their rules. Give me an example where they don't. And you can't use logging hate as an example because according to SE this does not break the rules.

Gotta call bullshit across the board on all of that.

There should be no "cat and mouse" on 3rd-party stuff. SE should ban it all and ban the players accordingly. You know my position already: If enforcing the ToS means Game Over for FFXI, then Game Over for FFXI, and better to do it as quickly as is manage-ably possible so that they don't lose further customers for their Rapture project.

I do give the PW "win" as an example of why they don't, and will continue to do so because it is an abject controvertion of their posted and stated rules.

No, you have the right to disagree, but SE has no obligation whatsoever to take you seriously. You could say your money should say something to them but well, money does talk and you're a lone account among many.

You do realize that that could almost admit that FFXI is a sham game and Square-Enix is only interested in our money. At that point, Square-Enix had better have written "hold harmless" into their Terms (they certainly have), because that action would basically constitute fraud.

Basically, what is being said is that the players have vetoed, overridden, and wiped out the Terms of Service. Remember what I said that DJ Plaeskool said a few weeks back: These bannings are payback for the players trying to seize control.

That's within your right, but I have to take offence at you calling people cheaters (myself included) based upon something which all evidence points to SE considering valid play. If the STF gets back to you and agrees with you then that's fine, we're all cheaters, but until then you have no official basis for calling this tactic cheating.

Absolutely I do have that basis, unless Square-Enix wants to render that portion of it's ToS null and void.

(In fact, taking it a step further, the only defensible action against even RMT at that point has nothing to do with the game itself, but with the money trading of Square-Enix proprietary virtual property by parties unauthorized to do so. RMT, in and of itself, would have no other illegality at all.)

SE has never specifically stated anywhere that it is an administrative mechanic so there is nothing for them to rescind. That also makes the rest of your statement assumption rather than fact.

You're beginning to use that kind of talk a cheater uses to justify any and all conduct. Just because Square-Enix hasn't laid down the law doesn't mean the players can just spit all over said law.

Unfortunately, Square-Enix is probably going to have to lay down the law, else there is no FFXI.

Logging out is an administrative function of the game, and an administrative function only. That's common sense. If there is any other purpose to logging out than the administrative purpose of that character leaving the game, then we need to know about it.

Then we get to charming, and the benefits of a good night's sleep:

However you're not using it for that purpose, you're using it to lose hate. Just like logging hate, you still log but it's all about intent.

Depends... If I've got something that wants my ass, maybe I want to turn it to my side of the equation and have it attack something else.

Oh, by the by... Had an opportunity to sleep on it, and figured out that you are actually incorrect. Charming does not wipe hate in the least (consider what happens to you before you get Leave and a monster comes uncharmed), telling a monster to Leave, OTOH...

Charming is an attack.

Here's the thing: If Square-Enix doesn't want to get in these kinds of decisions, then they will have to be more express in the types of things they allow and the types of things they do not.

Because you can get into discussions on matters as mundane as kiting itself (which see several discussions on "how far can Square-Enix take it?")

tarothin said...

Gotta call bullshit across the board on all of that.

There should be no "cat and mouse" on 3rd-party stuff. SE should ban it all and ban the players accordingly. You know my position already: If enforcing the ToS means Game Over for FFXI, then Game Over for FFXI, and better to do it as quickly as is manage-ably possible so that they don't lose further customers for their Rapture project.

I do give the PW "win" as an example of why they don't, and will continue to do so because it is an abject controvertion of their posted and stated rules.


The cat and mouse refers to the fact that SE has no reliable way of DETECTING 3rd party use other than someone blatently saying "I use windower" in game. I believe you can actually get someone in trouble if they actually say it in game as there are logs that a GM can review. Once again, saying Game Over to FFXI is not even an option for them. As far as i can tell you seem to be the ONLY person that views the rules in the light you do. SE also does not agree with your views as far as I can tell. Therefore the impact to their next generation MMO should be essentially close to nil.

Again, it is not a controvertion(is this a word? Think I know what you mean) of their posted and stated rules except under YOUR interpretation of those rules. Under SE's interpretation it is within the rules.

You do realize that that could almost admit that FFXI is a sham game and Square-Enix is only interested in our money. At that point, Square-Enix had better have written "hold harmless" into their Terms (they certainly have), because that action would basically constitute fraud.

Basically, what is being said is that the players have vetoed, overridden, and wiped out the Terms of Service. Remember what I said that DJ Plaeskool said a few weeks back: These bannings are payback for the players trying to seize control.


How do you define a sham game? Does SE crack down on stuff? Yes. Are they allowed to overlook things if they consider them not harmful to the game? Yes. Not quite sure how hold harmless fits into this, but it is in no way fraud as the TOS pretty much states, they can do whatever they want with regards to FFXI. Remember, what we sign is the TOS, NOT the Q&A, those are not binding rules, they're simply there to help clarify things for us.

Absolutely I do have that basis, unless Square-Enix wants to render that portion of it's ToS null and void.

So your basis is a portion of the Q&A (not even the TOS) which any GM will say is an actual feature. That doesn't seem particularly solid to me.

(In fact, taking it a step further, the only defensible action against even RMT at that point has nothing to do with the game itself, but with the money trading of Square-Enix proprietary virtual property by parties unauthorized to do so. RMT, in and of itself, would have no other illegality at all.)

Not sure I understand this whole block, but for reference, from the actual TOS we agree to, not the Q&A site.

Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing, or exchanging, "gil" (or any other in-Game currency), accounts, characters, "a player’s time and effort spent playing the Game," or Game items, for value (such as real currency) by any method, including, Internet auctions or other online exchanges

You're beginning to use that kind of talk a cheater uses to justify any and all conduct. Just because Square-Enix hasn't laid down the law doesn't mean the players can just spit all over said law.

Unfortunately, Square-Enix is probably going to have to lay down the law, else there is no FFXI.


SE does and always has laid down the law. But they have no need to enforce something which they do not consider breaking the rules. People have always been banned/suspended/punished for things which are easy to prove (which sleep logging would certainly classify as), POSing, warp crafting, salvage dupe of course, all of these could be proven within the game and were punished.

Logging out is an administrative function of the game, and an administrative function only. That's common sense. If there is any other purpose to logging out than the administrative purpose of that character leaving the game, then we need to know about it.

Well, maybe if you ask a GM he'll tell you, "oh and it can be used as a means of escape". Not everything can be written down (can you imagine documenting every single function/action in this game?), that's why GM's exist to clarify things.

Also, you're still using your interpretation of Q12652 (misuse of valid game mechanic), not what is more likely the more accurate interpretation (use of an invalid game mechanic). Therefore even if it is an "administrative function", it does not fall under Q12652 because the actual game mechanic does what it's supposed to.

Then we get to charming, and the benefits of a good night's sleep:

Depends... If I've got something that wants my ass, maybe I want to turn it to my side of the equation and have it attack something else.

Oh, by the by... Had an opportunity to sleep on it, and figured out that you are actually incorrect. Charming does not wipe hate in the least (consider what happens to you before you get Leave and a monster comes uncharmed), telling a monster to Leave, OTOH...

Charming is an attack.


Maybe you use it to attack later, but that would be after the fact. The moment it happened your intent was to save yourself rather than charm it for other purposes.

Ok, I'll reword it then, you're charming something to save your life rather than the intended purpose of charming. Same logic still applies.

And once again, zoning hate, please reply to this. How can you justify this under your super strict rules?

Here's the thing: If Square-Enix doesn't want to get in these kinds of decisions, then they will have to be more express in the types of things they allow and the types of things they do not.

Because you can get into discussions on matters as mundane as kiting itself (which see several discussions on "how far can Square-Enix take it?")


Again, talk to the GM then if you have doubts, that's what they're there for. If there were some sort of FFXI court then a GM call would serve as very good witness testimony.

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

The cat and mouse refers to the fact that SE has no reliable way of DETECTING 3rd party use other than someone blatently saying "I use windower" in game. I believe you can actually get someone in trouble if they actually say it in game as there are logs that a GM can review. Once again, saying Game Over to FFXI is not even an option for them. As far as i can tell you seem to be the ONLY person that views the rules in the light you do. SE also does not agree with your views as far as I can tell. Therefore the impact to their next generation MMO should be essentially close to nil.

Actually, part of the problem -- and part of the reason the impact to Rapture most certainly will not be nil by any measure -- is that we do not know what Square-Enix is saying in these, or many other regards.

The fact is: That lack of communication will leave FFXI a sham game and its customers (except for the cheating punks) unwilling to continue to work with this company. I suggest listening to the Limit Break Radio LM17 special on that subject. (Probably the second half of it.)

Well, maybe if you ask a GM he'll tell you, "oh and it can be used as a means of escape". Not everything can be written down (can you imagine documenting every single function/action in this game?), that's why GM's exist to clarify things.

I used to play Magic: The Gathering until WotC basically showed what a corrupt game really could be. But, even to the extent of making the game workable, they issued page upon page of rulings this and errata that and changing mechanics the other. Why can't Square-Enix do the same?

And don't tell me that it's unnecessary for them to do it - because it is necessary, especially given the players' open penchant to rape the game for their own ends.

Also, you're still using your interpretation of Q12652 (misuse of valid game mechanic), not what is more likely the more accurate interpretation (use of an invalid game mechanic). Therefore even if it is an "administrative function", it does not fall under Q12652 because the actual game mechanic does what it's supposed to.

The game mechanic is valid -- they are logging out of the game. They are committing the administrative act of logging out of the game, therefore the game mechanic, in a vacuum, is valid.

You add the "why" to the equation, and then we get to Q12652. They are using that administrative mechanic to do something non-administrative which gives them game advantage (in some cases, the only way they can win the fight).

If Square-Enix actually designed that you have to "log hate" to defeat Pandemonium Warden, the entire game is a legal fraud, since they are asking their players to commit acts illegal to the game as a necessary condition of victory.

Charming is an attack.

Maybe you use it to attack later, but that would be after the fact. The moment it happened your intent was to save yourself rather than charm it for other purposes.


No. Charming, in and of itself, is an attack, as defined in the game mechanic. How do I know this? Try to charm a monster you already have charmed, and the game will tell you you cannot attack that target.

You are attacking to gain control.

Ok, I'll reword it then, you're charming something to save your life rather than the intended purpose of charming. Same logic still applies.

You see what happens when Square-Enix lies silent on this subject? There have been people, in other blogs, that say even the practice of kiting is illegal, under the rule of using game geometry to avoid being attacked.

Specifically, though, you charm to gain control of a monster and it's actions. You have done so. That you give no "orders", per se, is another discussion. But you have control of the monster and it's actions when you charm it.

(What could come of that probably could have also already been addressed with the various MPK remedies -- imagine Charming an aggressive mob and setting it on some poor unsuspecting sod using Leave.)

Again, talk to the GM then if you have doubts, that's what they're there for. If there were some sort of FFXI court then a GM call would serve as very good witness testimony.

Effectively, that is the function of the STF.

tarothin said...

Actually, part of the problem -- and part of the reason the impact to Rapture most certainly will not be nil by any measure -- is that we do not know what Square-Enix is saying in these, or many other regards.

The fact is: That lack of communication will leave FFXI a sham game and its customers (except for the cheating punks) unwilling to continue to work with this company. I suggest listening to the Limit Break Radio LM17 special on that subject. (Probably the second half of it.)


The problem with your second statement there, is there is communication. GM's are pretty much available 24/7 to answer any question you may have. Or are you saying they need to account for like the status of every person the banned for the dupes or something? I'm not really sure what you want out of them communication-wise.

I used to play Magic: The Gathering until WotC basically showed what a corrupt game really could be. But, even to the extent of making the game workable, they issued page upon page of rulings this and errata that and changing mechanics the other. Why can't Square-Enix do the same?

And don't tell me that it's unnecessary for them to do it - because it is necessary, especially given the players' open penchant to rape the game for their own ends.


Because there's no need to do all that when you have what's essentially a 24/7 free service to the user which will answer any question they have, aka, the GM's.

The game mechanic is valid -- they are logging out of the game. They are committing the administrative act of logging out of the game, therefore the game mechanic, in a vacuum, is valid.

Exactly, the game mechanic is valid, hence it is NOT COVERED by Q12652. Q12652 is not meant to cover valid game mechanics, it's meant to cover invalid ones.

If Square-Enix actually designed that you have to "log hate" to defeat Pandemonium Warden, the entire game is a legal fraud, since they are asking their players to commit acts illegal to the game as a necessary condition of victory.

What if they simply designed it so you have to avoid astral flow in some manner, whether that be to stay out of range, logging out, even, zoning! If Apathy had instead had everyone zone instead of log out, would it then have been legal? You have endorsed zoning on several occasions as a valid game tactic after all.

No. Charming, in and of itself, is an attack, as defined in the game mechanic. How do I know this? Try to charm a monster you already have charmed, and the game will tell you you cannot attack that target.

You are attacking to gain control.


No, you're attacking to save your life, gaining control is the manner by which you do it.

You see what happens when Square-Enix lies silent on this subject? There have been people, in other blogs, that say even the practice of kiting is illegal, under the rule of using game geometry to avoid being attacked.

And again, the GM's are SE's voice to you. If you have questions then ask away, there's nothing to stop you.

Specifically, though, you charm to gain control of a monster and it's actions. You have done so. That you give no "orders", per se, is another discussion. But you have control of the monster and it's actions when you charm it.

(What could come of that probably could have also already been addressed with the various MPK remedies -- imagine Charming an aggressive mob and setting it on some poor unsuspecting sod using Leave.)


Specifically, the purpose of charm is to gain control of a monster and it's actions. But you are not doing it for that purpose, you are doing it to save your life.

And one of the things about charm actually erasing hate, I believe it's actually the case that it erases the hate and uncharming simply creates new hate for you. For instance, if you charm something with hate on someone else and let it uncharm and then zone yourself, it will not go after the other person anymore because all hate has been erased once it was charmed.

Effectively, that is the function of the STF.

And that was my point, because the GM's are the voice of SE you could not be held to blame when SE themselves had told you their stance.

And once again, zoning hate, please reply to this. How can you justify this under your super strict rules?

Starcade, now from Leviathan said...

tarothin:

The problem with your second statement there, is there is communication. GM's are pretty much available 24/7 to answer any question you may have. Or are you saying they need to account for like the status of every person the banned for the dupes or something? I'm not really sure what you want out of them communication-wise.

It's not the GM's. It's SE itself. They need to basically come out and say "This is an exploit, that is not, here's the difference..." Among other things.

Don't take my word for it either, if you choose not to: Communication concerns took up much of the second half of the LBR LM17 LBN I discussed here on the blog.

Because there's no need to do all that when you have what's essentially a 24/7 free service to the user which will answer any question they have, aka, the GM's.

Which has been shown to be woefully inconsistent and probably ineffective in the past. (Salvage dupes as one good example.)

Exactly, the game mechanic is valid, hence it is NOT COVERED by Q12652. Q12652 is not meant to cover valid game mechanics, it's meant to cover invalid ones.

Now I get where you're coming from.

You're wrong. Q12652 is not meant to cover invalid game mechanics -- it is meant to cover the use of game mechanics in invalid and unintended ways which create unfair game advantage.

What if they simply designed it so you have to avoid astral flow in some manner, whether that be to stay out of range, logging out, even, zoning! If Apathy had instead had everyone zone instead of log out, would it then have been legal? You have endorsed zoning on several occasions as a valid game tactic after all.

Basically, you'd probably be looking at that, or a much larger player pool that basically has a second entire set of alliances (which don't gain hate until the first die) or something.

But zoning hate, in and of itself, because of the lack of communication on the part of Square-Enix, is, even though a fundamental gameplay tactic, quasi-legal at best. (There's even been discussion that kiting is not legal neither.)

No, you're attacking to save your life, gaining control is the manner by which you do it.

You could even, then, make the case that attacking any monster aggressive to you is for the same purpose.

There is, however, one fundamental difference in the case of logging hate: In the case of charming and of zoning, these are functions within the game. These are mechanics within the game. Logging out is not a part of the game, per se. The only reason the administrative function exists is because you have to be in the game to log out of it. (Just like you have to be out of the game to log in.)

And again, the GM's are SE's voice to you. If you have questions then ask away, there's nothing to stop you.

I point you, once again, to the latter portions of the LBR LM17 LBN.

Specifically, the purpose of charm is to gain control of a monster and it's actions. But you are not doing it for that purpose, you are doing it to save your life.

What if your command is for the monster to "do nothing"? You control that it won't do anything, at that point.

And one of the things about charm actually erasing hate, I believe it's actually the case that it erases the hate and uncharming simply creates new hate for you. For instance, if you charm something with hate on someone else and let it uncharm and then zone yourself, it will not go after the other person anymore because all hate has been erased once it was charmed.

The only reason I don't think you're right is that you gained enough hate to override the other person's hate at that point. If it wears off, then it looks around like: "HUH?? How'd I get _here_?" and then goes about its business.

Again, charm an already charmed monster (or try to) and you will know that charming is declared an attack.

And once again, zoning hate, please reply to this. How can you justify this under your super strict rules?

It needs to be looked at.

Do you now see why the lack of communication on such subjects by Square-Enix can lead to untenable results?