Wednesday, June 23, 2010

Had a bit of an altercation during Abyssea today....

Had another one of those conversations today. And I think it was with Edwyth (on an alt). (If I am wrong and the person I spoke to was not Edwyth, then I apologize.)

Anyhoo, I first thought it was that shithead Adam Westwood, who said he was coming on Leviathan to take potshots at me...

Turns out that the person I did talk to was talking to Chinchilla on Skype or such, and wanted to know how I felt about her still being allowed on FFXI at all...

Needless to say, that didn't start my Abyssea run on a good note.

At this point, the allowance of Square-Enix to allow players like Chinchilla and Keichan/Kaeko/Kanichan to continue playing this game at all is not only an act of fraud on the company's part (as well as on the parts of the individual players), but is probably the only reason FFXI still exists.

Additionally, the only question as to if to sue Square-Enix would come down to a question of standing -- vis-a-vis,( in a legal sense) what damages, if any, would be allowed.

Especially with the amount of cheating and illegal shit running rampant in FFXI, these "players" are probably adept to advance further and faster than the legitimate players even after they get banned.

In fact, the person I talked to today had the audacity to say that it was entirely Square-Enix' fault the Salvage exploits took place, and that they should not have banned anyone for the duping.

Realize, at that point, that you basically kill two cardinal rules of the game:

Q12652, which bans all conduct within the game which is not done within intended parameters.

and the exploit rules, which disallow all conduct which exploits code for illegal purposes.

The latter is the reason I GM'ed the current Campaign XP situation -- 3 times now without appropriate response.

You know, I realize, within the context of a social game which the players want to destroy the balance of (simply for their own benefit), that it is considered insanity to demand the rules be enforced.

As I told the person: I feel not only condemned because I vociferously speak out, I feel condemned because I refuse to use 3PP and bots and exploits and the like.

This is not a democracy -- the players should have zero say as to what is allowed and what is not. That they appear to have that says basically allows:

-- Windower
-- bots, completely destroying any hope that non-RMT players have of taking part in several functions of the game
-- RMT itself
-- etc.

...and I find it a laugh my discussion partner believes that all RMT should be jailed, as I do.

Face it: The players want to use any means they can (cockblocks, bots, exploits, Windower, etc.) to advance in the game (often at the expense of other players).

If Square-Enix does not have the right to ban conduct as it sees fit (but then has to enforce what it makes a Term of Service), then what ownership do they have of anything?

*sigh* One of these days...

18 comments:

Bryan said...

Most assuredly wasn't Edwyth. He's not confrontational, and will go out of his way to not rock boats.

Jud said...

Chin continues to do more good for this game and community than you could even possibly comprehend. Did she cheat? Yes. Did she get punished? Yes. Does she actually play, contribute to the community and stand as an example of someone who acts like an adult despite being practically half your age? Indeed. But you wouldn't know what to make of that... Cursing and acting like a baby is all you know how to do.

A waste of skin like yourself does nothing for anyone except yourself; you've admitted it. You have the gall to call her out, but you don't have the stones, skill or intelligence to take her on.

BTW, threatening people is a crime. Keep doing it in writing and see how that goes for you.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Only if the line of questioning wasn't so, to me, provocative -- I just thought I saw the name of that character (Berndherbert or something like that) before as one of his alts.

I do apologize if it was not him.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Jud:

#1: Chin lost the right to have anything to do with FFXI when she was banned, as I will when I _AM_ banned.

Chin only contributes in the sense that the game community, with a wink and a nod, allows "people" like her to continue to play this game. She was in no way penalized, with the exception of losing the character.

The player was banned, and that should not have been controverted.

She acts like an adult? I told you I'm not the most mature 41 around. Dealing with people like you makes me physically ill.

#2: If I did something for myself, I'd be on Death Row right now. You don't want to believe that, that's your call.

#3: I am going to prison within the next 18 months. Guarantee that as well.

adam westwood said...

oh dont worry mike, I strike when you least expect me mwahahaha

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

You want to get fucked up seriously, do you not, Adam?

I'm a student of the old BBS days, where people tell me of a time where people like you would get physical visits from some of their opponents.

adam westwood said...

Oh please I'd have your asthmatic midget ass on the floor in seconds flat it wouldn't be a fair fight mike and you know it.

Besides, much more fun having you nerd rage over the internet.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Prove it.

You really think you could put me on the floor.

You'd have to kill me, fucker.

And the only way to deal with fuckers like you is to basically call them out and get RL on their asses.

Happened to me a long time ago, will happen to you if you're too stupid to think otherwise.

You're a troll -- and trolls need to be eliminated.

Volkai said...

"The player was banned, and that should not have been controverted."

Technically, no, the player was not banned. The account was banned. To my knowledge there is nothing in the account banning process that forbids the player from making another account.

Volkai said...

Now, if an account ban should be a ban on the player of the account, not just the account itself -- that's another matter.

But how things are and how they should be rarely coincide -- nevermind that how things 'should' be is often a matter of opinion rather than fact.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

And there's the problem, Volkai.

Because the PLAYER committed the misconduct. It's quite plausible to do it, especially in the day and age of forced SafeSecure and the like.

What is their punishment, especially in the day and age of (illegal) Astral Burn and the like, if the player is not banned??

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Volkai again:

The thing is that it forces the players to eventually either accept the cheating (and, doubly so, the cheaters!), or decide that you have to take matters into your own hands.

The Terms of Service serve to protect the legitimate players from not only the cheaters, but from the need to take matters into their own hands and commit acts of violence (in and out of game) to gain order.

You don't want me to think the same way -- and, if they don't like it, see above. I know I'm headed to jail, sooner or later.

Volkai said...

"What is their punishment, especially in the day and age of (illegal) Astral Burn and the like, if the player is not banned??"

Their punishment is several-fold, of varying magnitude depending on the type of player.

Some players grow attached to their characters. Others do not. If a player does or does not violate ToS is irrelevant to this factor. The loss of one's current character, the ability to reuse that character's name on the same server, can be quite demoralizing to a player.

For players who do not grow attached to their characters (these most often refer to them as 'toons', I find) the aforementioned issue has little relevance. However, they have still been dealt a setback. They have to start from square one. All the rare gear they had spent so much time getting is gone. Ridill? Poof. Kraken Club? Gone. Ninurta Sash? Vanished faster than a sure-fire way to kill AV.

Even if they can get their levels back with ease, they will still lose time to reacquiring gear, mission completion for access to various events, and even such basics as the subjob and chocobo quests, not to mention refarming fame for quest access.

Furthermore, repeat violators will suffer this setback every time they are caught.


"The thing is that it forces the players to eventually either accept the cheating (and, doubly so, the cheaters!), or decide that you have to take matters into your own hands."

Not really, no. Continue to report all cheating you see in-game. Don't confront them personally, that accomplishes nothing. Just write down the when/where/who/what details, submit your GM Call, confer politely with the GM if asked for information, and be on your way. Continue also to email Square-Enix with (polite/formal) requests to strengthen their anti-ToS-Violation penalties.

This is the most effective thing you can do.

Volkai said...

"The thing is that it forces the players to eventually either accept the cheating (and, doubly so, the cheaters!), or decide that you have to take matters into your own hands."

Not really, no. Continue to report all cheating you see in-game. Don't confront them personally, that accomplishes nothing. Just write down the when/where/who/what details, submit your GM Call, confer politely with the GM if asked for information, and be on your way. Continue also to email Square-Enix with (polite/formal) requests to strengthen their anti-ToS-Violation penalties.

This is the most effective thing you can do.


Regardless of this, you're still not being forced either way. You could continue to simply verbally condemn cheaters, or appeal to the greater masses through public sites such as Kotaku or Massively.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Volkai (you triple-clicked on that one about what their punishment was -- this is in response to that one):

The demoralizing effect on that situation is lessened or obliterated if it's clear that the person is cheating, knows the penalties, and thumbs their nose at Square-Enix, the other players, and legitimate game balance.

I understand what you are saying regarding attachment to one's character, but I begin to wonder, in these cases, whether the attachment might be more to the gear and the status, rather than the character itself.

---

Part of the reason that I don't quite agree with the loss of progress argument has to do with the Astral Burning and all that stuff. Most of these people also do not work alone -- so they have a structure in place if they get banned and have to restart.

Now, it's a lot more devastating (and it happened to more than a few people during the Salvage bans) if the entire structure falls.

And I also consider the RMT factor -- we had one guy who got banned (about 6 1/2 years into the game) who had FOUR relics.

---

I don't think Square-Enix really cares to enforce the damn rules unless someone publicly embarrasses the company and causes their business model to falter.

I think if otherwise had been true, you'd have already seen Windower either allowed or banned (the latter probably wiping out 3/4 or more PC NA 75+'s) -- you'd have already seen bots be punished (which probably would've ended most, if not all, HNM play) -- etc.

I just think that Square-Enix wants to keep this going just a little while longer (three more months, now??)...

I've been trying to get the GMs and the STF involved, and, frankly, I've had enough of being polite with a bunch of people for whom it is not in their interest to enforce the rules.

Starcade, back on Leviathan said...

Re: Outside Sources (Volkai)

I have posted a little bit in the comment sections on XI articles on Massively. As I just said, it's a good idea to understand that it really appears that Square-Enix does not act without some degree of embarrassment outside of XI.

One, however, now has to wonder if that would work, since they've already basically set the date that XIV is getting released.

Volkai said...

"regarding attachment to one's character ... I begin to wonder, in these cases, whether the attachment might be more to the gear and the status, rather than the character itself."
It doesn't matter, really, since they're all gone.

"And I also consider the RMT factor -- we had one guy who got banned (about 6 1/2 years into the game) who had FOUR relics."
That doesn't require RMT. You just need to run a Dyna shell where members come for the armor and you collect all the currency. Do that for four years and you've got all the currency you need. Especially since they upped the drop rates. Spend the rest of your time farming and selling valuable items (KClubs, Cuchulain Mantles) and using that money to buy the cheapest ancient currencies you can buy. BAM! Stripeshells, Goldpieces, and 10,000 Byne Bills up the wazoo, no ToS violated.

Mercing drops may be scummy, but it's not against ToS.

Volkai said...

"you'd have already seen Windower either allowed or banned ... you'd have already seen bots be punished "

SE can't allow Windower, probably due to some convoluted legalese thing that would make them liable if it screwed something up. However, it's clear they don't see it as a threat to the player base, or they would have acted on it by now.

As for bots, the trick with bots is that it is often difficult to definitively prove someone is using one, that it's not just a player acting similar to how a bot might. SE tends to give the benefit of the doubt in these cases, due to this social equation:

Not banning a botter = bad
Banning a non-botter = worse

bad > worse

Due to this, it takes repeated reports or a blatant violation (pos-hacking, NMs spawning where they shouldn't) to get a botter banned. Mobs that "spawn purple" don't count because that can be explained by lag on the client end simply missing the short time frame when the mob is unclaimed.